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And Qualcomm is the only competitive ARM chip on the market besides Apple's. And now they are being taken out by ARM. Is it really that expensive to re-licens

And Qualcomm is the only competitive ARM chip on the market besides Apple's. And now they are being taken out by ARM. Is it really that expensive to re-license things? This seems self-defeating.

hajile 2y ago
Now that the Nvidia deal has fallen through, SoftBank is trying to ramp up profitability while continuing to search for another buyer.
UltraSane 2y ago
AWS has the Graviton ARM CPU that is pretty competitive but you can only rent them.
- jsheard 2y ago
  Ampere has Graviton-like chips that you can actually buy, but neither Graviton or Ampere are really in the same market segment as Qualcomm and Apple.
  - hedora 2y ago
    System76 recently released an ampere desktop. It starts at about half the price of a Mac Pro and seems to top out at many more cores. I’m not sure if the low end ampere is as slow as a high end mac though.
- bhouston 2y ago
  I believe Graviton is competitive in the server market yes, but not in mobile or laptops.
  - hajile 2y ago
    Graviton4 is based on Neoverse V2 which is based on X3. Neoverse V3 was announced Feb of this year. It should have an 80-85% performance increase and should basically be based on something very close to x925.
- seabrookmx 2y ago
  Graviton is just an ARM neoverse core no? It's not a bespoke design.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    I think so.
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    [dead]
zbshqoa 2y ago
Ah? ARM doesn't build chips but provides the architecture and license it to other companies. There are plenty of ARM chips designed by multiple companies and built by multiple foundries
- dagmx 2y ago
  ARM licenses cores for both CPU and GPU, not just the architecture. There are not “plenty of ARM chips designed by multiple companies”, almost all of them except for Apple (and now Qualcomm) use ARMs off the shelf design.
  - HeuristicsCG 2y ago
    Also NPU
  - zbshqoa 2y ago
    https://www.arm.com/markets/computing-infrastructure/cloud-computing https://www.arm.com/markets/computing-infrastructure/cloud-c... > Annapurna Labs, Ampere Computing, NVIDIA, Intel, Marvell, Pensando Systems, and others use Arm Neoverse and Arm technologies to create cloud-optimized CPUs and DPUs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family > Companies that have designed cores that implement an ARM architecture include Apple, AppliedMicro (now: Ampere Computing), Broadcom, Cavium (now: Marvell), Digital Equipment Corporation, Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung Electronics, Fujitsu, and NUVIA Inc. (acquired by Qualcomm in 2021).
    - dagmx 2y ago
      The first list is basically what I said: they use licensed core designs and don’t make their own. The second list is out of date. Intel has completely pulled out of ARM earlier this year and most of the others do not actually design their own ARM cores anymore. It’s become a lot less common in the ARMv8+ era.
bufferoverflow 2y ago
Samsung and MediaTek make pretty competitive ARM processors. MediaTek 9400 is literally the top-performing SoC on the market. Samsung Exynos 2400, 2400e MediaTek Dimensity 9400, 9300 Plus, 9300 https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-list/rating https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-list/rating
- bhouston 2y ago
  The geekbench scores of Apple are highest and then Qualcomm according to this page. MediaTek’s top chip is literally 25% slower according to his listing. The ordering in ranking is a little weird.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    25% slower than apple is more than enough for a mobile chip. The new apple chips are faster than desktop chips from a few years ago
  - monlockandkey 2y ago
    People do not seem to understand that these chips are in different price brackets, even between Qualcomm and Mediatek. That is why there is a discrepancy in performance. Would not be fair to compare a $20 toaster to a $50 toaster and say that the $20 toaster is slower.
  - bufferoverflow 2y ago
    You got even that wrong. Single-core GB score is highest, multicore is not. Snapdragon's score is higher.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  I never thought I would hear MediaTek and top chip maker in the same line
mdasen 2y ago
The issue is that Qualcomm wants to switch to ARM chips where they don't pay ARM much money. When you're making ARM chips, you can either license the instruction set or you can license whole core designs. Most people license whole core designs. You build a chip using an ARM Cortex X4 core, 3 Cortex A720 cores, and 4 Cortex A520 cores and call it a day. But when you're using ARM's core designs, you have to pay them a lot to license those core designs. But when you're licensing the instruction set (and designing your own cores), you pay ARM a tiny licensing fee. This is what Apple does. In this case, the story goes: A startup called Nuvia wanted to create custom ARM cores for servers and negotiated a deal with ARM that was very favorable since ARM would like to grow its server marketshare. The agreement included a stipulation that they couldn't sell their IP to another company for that other company to build ARM cores built on Nuvia IP (according to ARM). Qualcomm argues that they have an instruction set license so they're allowed to build custom cores based off that license. ARM says that Nuvia's instruction set license means that Qualcomm can't. I don't know what the cost difference is between core licenses and instruction licenses, but some places seem to think it's around 5x. Qualcomm has around 35% of the ARM chip market, but crucially a huge portion of the more expensive (and profitable for ARM) flagship cores. It's possible that Qualcomm is half of ARM's business (maybe more). If Qualcomm shifts to their own core designs and starts paying ARM 20% of what they're paying now, that could wipe out 40% of ARM's revenue. If Qualcomm can shift from more expensive core licenses to cheaper instruction licenses, it would wipe out a huge portion of ARM's business. Worse, if those cores are better and become the de-facto flagship cores, it'd wipe out even more of ARM's business as companies like Samsung and Google might feel the need to buy Qualcomm chips (with better cores) rather than buying ARM's Cortex X cores for their flagship phones. Likewise, Qualcomm is unlikely to stop at smartphones. They're already moving into laptops which will make it harder for any company using ARM-designed cores to get a foothold there. Qualcomm could move into servers in the near future and offer something better than the ARM Neoverse cores that are used by AWS's Graviton, Google's Axion, and Ampere. So it's an enormous threat to ARM's business and ARM feels like it gave Nuvia a sweetheart deal because they were a small startup looking to enter a mostly new market rather than disrupting their current business - and they gave them a license with restrictions on it. Then Nuvia sold to Qualcomm who is using that IP to stop paying ARM - and ARM thinks that goes against the restrictions that Nuvia agreed to.

And Qualcomm is the only competitive ARM chip on the market besides Apple's. And now they are being taken out by ARM. Is it really that expensive to re-license things? This seems self-defeating.

hajile 2y ago

Now that the Nvidia deal has fallen through, SoftBank is trying to ramp up profitability while continuing to search for another buyer.

UltraSane 2y ago

AWS has the Graviton ARM CPU that is pretty competitive but you can only rent them.

jsheard 2y ago
Ampere has Graviton-like chips that you can actually buy, but neither Graviton or Ampere are really in the same market segment as Qualcomm and Apple.
- hedora 2y ago
  System76 recently released an ampere desktop. It starts at about half the price of a Mac Pro and seems to top out at many more cores. I’m not sure if the low end ampere is as slow as a high end mac though.
bhouston 2y ago
I believe Graviton is competitive in the server market yes, but not in mobile or laptops.
- hajile 2y ago
  Graviton4 is based on Neoverse V2 which is based on X3. Neoverse V3 was announced Feb of this year. It should have an 80-85% performance increase and should basically be based on something very close to x925.
seabrookmx 2y ago
Graviton is just an ARM neoverse core no? It's not a bespoke design.
- bhouston 2y ago
  I think so.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  [dead]

zbshqoa 2y ago

Ah? ARM doesn't build chips but provides the architecture and license it to other companies. There are plenty of ARM chips designed by multiple companies and built by multiple foundries

dagmx 2y ago
ARM licenses cores for both CPU and GPU, not just the architecture. There are not “plenty of ARM chips designed by multiple companies”, almost all of them except for Apple (and now Qualcomm) use ARMs off the shelf design.
- HeuristicsCG 2y ago
  Also NPU
- zbshqoa 2y ago
  https://www.arm.com/markets/computing-infrastructure/cloud-computing https://www.arm.com/markets/computing-infrastructure/cloud-c... > Annapurna Labs, Ampere Computing, NVIDIA, Intel, Marvell, Pensando Systems, and others use Arm Neoverse and Arm technologies to create cloud-optimized CPUs and DPUs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family > Companies that have designed cores that implement an ARM architecture include Apple, AppliedMicro (now: Ampere Computing), Broadcom, Cavium (now: Marvell), Digital Equipment Corporation, Intel, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung Electronics, Fujitsu, and NUVIA Inc. (acquired by Qualcomm in 2021).
  - dagmx 2y ago
    The first list is basically what I said: they use licensed core designs and don’t make their own. The second list is out of date. Intel has completely pulled out of ARM earlier this year and most of the others do not actually design their own ARM cores anymore. It’s become a lot less common in the ARMv8+ era.

bufferoverflow 2y ago

Samsung and MediaTek make pretty competitive ARM processors. MediaTek 9400 is literally the top-performing SoC on the market. Samsung Exynos 2400, 2400e MediaTek Dimensity 9400, 9300 Plus, 9300 https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-list/rating https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-list/rating

bhouston 2y ago
The geekbench scores of Apple are highest and then Qualcomm according to this page. MediaTek’s top chip is literally 25% slower according to his listing. The ordering in ranking is a little weird.
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  25% slower than apple is more than enough for a mobile chip. The new apple chips are faster than desktop chips from a few years ago
- monlockandkey 2y ago
  People do not seem to understand that these chips are in different price brackets, even between Qualcomm and Mediatek. That is why there is a discrepancy in performance. Would not be fair to compare a $20 toaster to a $50 toaster and say that the $20 toaster is slower.
- bufferoverflow 2y ago
  You got even that wrong. Single-core GB score is highest, multicore is not. Snapdragon's score is higher.
nashashmi 2y ago
I never thought I would hear MediaTek and top chip maker in the same line

mdasen 2y ago

The issue is that Qualcomm wants to switch to ARM chips where they don't pay ARM much money. When you're making ARM chips, you can either license the instruction set or you can license whole core designs. Most people license whole core designs. You build a chip using an ARM Cortex X4 core, 3 Cortex A720 cores, and 4 Cortex A520 cores and call it a day. But when you're using ARM's core designs, you have to pay them a lot to license those core designs. But when you're licensing the instruction set (and designing your own cores), you pay ARM a tiny licensing fee. This is what Apple does. In this case, the story goes: A startup called Nuvia wanted to create custom ARM cores for servers and negotiated a deal with ARM that was very favorable since ARM would like to grow its server marketshare. The agreement included a stipulation that they couldn't sell their IP to another company for that other company to build ARM cores built on Nuvia IP (according to ARM). Qualcomm argues that they have an instruction set license so they're allowed to build custom cores based off that license. ARM says that Nuvia's instruction set license means that Qualcomm can't. I don't know what the cost difference is between core licenses and instruction licenses, but some places seem to think it's around 5x. Qualcomm has around 35% of the ARM chip market, but crucially a huge portion of the more expensive (and profitable for ARM) flagship cores. It's possible that Qualcomm is half of ARM's business (maybe more). If Qualcomm shifts to their own core designs and starts paying ARM 20% of what they're paying now, that could wipe out 40% of ARM's revenue. If Qualcomm can shift from more expensive core licenses to cheaper instruction licenses, it would wipe out a huge portion of ARM's business. Worse, if those cores are better and become the de-facto flagship cores, it'd wipe out even more of ARM's business as companies like Samsung and Google might feel the need to buy Qualcomm chips (with better cores) rather than buying ARM's Cortex X cores for their flagship phones. Likewise, Qualcomm is unlikely to stop at smartphones. They're already moving into laptops which will make it harder for any company using ARM-designed cores to get a foothold there. Qualcomm could move into servers in the near future and offer something better than the ARM Neoverse cores that are used by AWS's Graviton, Google's Axion, and Ampere. So it's an enormous threat to ARM's business and ARM feels like it gave Nuvia a sweetheart deal because they were a small startup looking to enter a mostly new market rather than disrupting their current business - and they gave them a license with restrictions on it. Then Nuvia sold to Qualcomm who is using that IP to stop paying ARM - and ARM thinks that goes against the restrictions that Nuvia agreed to.