4 ms·

I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, so stop it. Your position is reprehensible enough without you trying to pull a stunt like that. You have repeatedly

I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, so stop it. Your position is reprehensible enough without you trying to pull a stunt like that. You have repeatedly asserted that multiple referenda shows your position is supported by the majority of Americans. All I'm doing is equating your assertion with that of the you from 150 years ago - the "social conservative" who doesn't believe a slave should have the same rights as a white man. We'll say nothing about the fact that the trend of public opinion seems to be inexorably towards more tolerance and less bigotry, as that would just make your reliance on popular opinion even more farcical.

cookiecaper 14y ago
>I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, so stop it. Your position is reprehensible enough without you trying to pull a stunt like that. But you've done the same thing with this post! "So stop it." Your strawmen and ignorance are reprehensible enough without pulling stunts, etc. etc. etc. True, my post mentions public opinion mutliple times, mostly to demonstrate that the narrative of gay rights activists that "religious people are forcing" their views upon the gay community is not only false but in fact the opposite of the reality. It is not, however, a fundamental component of most of my reasons for opposing gay marriage. It was mentioned that gay rights activists would have far more success in gaining the same privileges if they were content with civil unions due to public opinion against the equivocation of straight and gay relationships, but that's about it as it pertains to actual involvement in rationale. So, if this is such a blatantly incorrect position, why don't you address some of the real rationale above. If you find the supply of rationale insufficient due to the necessity to construct a correct context of events for the reader, I can post more. >We'll say nothing about the fact that the trend of public opinion seems to be inexorably towards more tolerance and less bigotry, as that would just make your reliance on popular opinion even more farcical. Perhaps you mean towards more permissiveness and less intelligence, fidelity, loyalty, etc. "Bigotry" is not meaningful when its definition is "incomplete moral relativism".
- urbanjunkie 14y ago
  It's instructive how quickly you decide that public opinion is worthless when you don't have it on your side. The reason I don't address the rest of your points is that fundamentally they boil down to this "Gay people don't deserve the same rights as straight people" The version of you, 150 years ago. would be saying the same thing about black people. Having destroyed your arguments regarding popular support for your position, I feel no great compunction to school you morally, or to teach you basic precepts from your own religion. I will say one thing - I am 100% certain that your Jesus Christ would be on my side of this debate - not yours.
  - cookiecaper 14y ago
    I disagree! I established in the OP that marriage is not a right. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge any difference between "existing with black skin" and "choosing to enter a consensual sexual relationship with a person of the same sex". One of these components requires a much larger degree of energy and initiative than the other. One of these is the result of an individual making a conscious decision to do a thing. On top of that, I am not advocating any removal of rights from gay people. Marriage is not a right; it's a social program the state undertakes because it believes it has a reason to encourage permanent heterosexual coupling. The question isn't "do you hate gay people and hope they die?", but "do you think the government should encourage permanent homosexual coupling?" I don't believe sodomy should be criminalized. If two adults want to engage in homosexual activity, it is within their rights to do so. This DOES NOT mean that it is automatically a good idea for the government to grant special rights, privileges, and endorsement to that relationship. I don't believe it should be legal to own other people, and I'm not sure where my argument implies that I do. You're the only one who has mentioned race or slavery. It seems that it's just your go-to demonization attempt for people with whom you disagree on this matter. Self-direction and autonomy IS a natural right, unlike marriage, and natural rights should be preserved. We can debate slavery more if you really think it's necessary, I guess. I am opposed to slavery. Perhaps you can demonstrate a true, substantive link between not believing the government should give homosexual couples special positive benefits and believing that black people shouldn't be able to self-direct. "I don't like either belief" is not legitimate. You're correct that the question "Should the state encourage permanent homosexual coupling?" typically boils down to "Do you believe homosexuality is a a socially beneficial behavior that should be encouraged among those inclined to practice it?" For me, the answer is no. Nevertheless, this debate is built upon from pretty seriously false and shallow pretenses by both sides -- I'm hoping to demonstrate that there can be a reasonable mode of disagreement and that someone can't immediately be considered stupid for failing to want to encourage homosexual behavior. Reasonable persons can disagree on the matter. >Having destroyed your arguments regarding popular support for your position I would hardly consider any of my arguments "destroyed", and as I've pointed out multiple times, popular support is not a major component in my rationale for opposing gay marriage, or anything else, really. If it were, would I be here on HN getting myself downvoted all the time? I have already explained where public opinion factored into the post I posted. Perhaps you should re-read that explanation until you understand it. >I feel no great compunction to school you morally, or to teach you basic precepts from your own religion. I will say one thing - I am 100% certain that your Jesus Christ would be on my side of this debate - not yours. This statement proves that you know very little of my religious inclinations. You may want to stop making presumptions like this soon -- it hasn't served you very well so far.

cookiecaper 14y ago

>I'm not trying to do anything of the sort, so stop it. Your position is reprehensible enough without you trying to pull a stunt like that. But you've done the same thing with this post! "So stop it." Your strawmen and ignorance are reprehensible enough without pulling stunts, etc. etc. etc. True, my post mentions public opinion mutliple times, mostly to demonstrate that the narrative of gay rights activists that "religious people are forcing" their views upon the gay community is not only false but in fact the opposite of the reality. It is not, however, a fundamental component of most of my reasons for opposing gay marriage. It was mentioned that gay rights activists would have far more success in gaining the same privileges if they were content with civil unions due to public opinion against the equivocation of straight and gay relationships, but that's about it as it pertains to actual involvement in rationale. So, if this is such a blatantly incorrect position, why don't you address some of the real rationale above. If you find the supply of rationale insufficient due to the necessity to construct a correct context of events for the reader, I can post more. >We'll say nothing about the fact that the trend of public opinion seems to be inexorably towards more tolerance and less bigotry, as that would just make your reliance on popular opinion even more farcical. Perhaps you mean towards more permissiveness and less intelligence, fidelity, loyalty, etc. "Bigotry" is not meaningful when its definition is "incomplete moral relativism".

urbanjunkie 14y ago
It's instructive how quickly you decide that public opinion is worthless when you don't have it on your side. The reason I don't address the rest of your points is that fundamentally they boil down to this "Gay people don't deserve the same rights as straight people" The version of you, 150 years ago. would be saying the same thing about black people. Having destroyed your arguments regarding popular support for your position, I feel no great compunction to school you morally, or to teach you basic precepts from your own religion. I will say one thing - I am 100% certain that your Jesus Christ would be on my side of this debate - not yours.
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  I disagree! I established in the OP that marriage is not a right. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge any difference between "existing with black skin" and "choosing to enter a consensual sexual relationship with a person of the same sex". One of these components requires a much larger degree of energy and initiative than the other. One of these is the result of an individual making a conscious decision to do a thing. On top of that, I am not advocating any removal of rights from gay people. Marriage is not a right; it's a social program the state undertakes because it believes it has a reason to encourage permanent heterosexual coupling. The question isn't "do you hate gay people and hope they die?", but "do you think the government should encourage permanent homosexual coupling?" I don't believe sodomy should be criminalized. If two adults want to engage in homosexual activity, it is within their rights to do so. This DOES NOT mean that it is automatically a good idea for the government to grant special rights, privileges, and endorsement to that relationship. I don't believe it should be legal to own other people, and I'm not sure where my argument implies that I do. You're the only one who has mentioned race or slavery. It seems that it's just your go-to demonization attempt for people with whom you disagree on this matter. Self-direction and autonomy IS a natural right, unlike marriage, and natural rights should be preserved. We can debate slavery more if you really think it's necessary, I guess. I am opposed to slavery. Perhaps you can demonstrate a true, substantive link between not believing the government should give homosexual couples special positive benefits and believing that black people shouldn't be able to self-direct. "I don't like either belief" is not legitimate. You're correct that the question "Should the state encourage permanent homosexual coupling?" typically boils down to "Do you believe homosexuality is a a socially beneficial behavior that should be encouraged among those inclined to practice it?" For me, the answer is no. Nevertheless, this debate is built upon from pretty seriously false and shallow pretenses by both sides -- I'm hoping to demonstrate that there can be a reasonable mode of disagreement and that someone can't immediately be considered stupid for failing to want to encourage homosexual behavior. Reasonable persons can disagree on the matter. >Having destroyed your arguments regarding popular support for your position I would hardly consider any of my arguments "destroyed", and as I've pointed out multiple times, popular support is not a major component in my rationale for opposing gay marriage, or anything else, really. If it were, would I be here on HN getting myself downvoted all the time? I have already explained where public opinion factored into the post I posted. Perhaps you should re-read that explanation until you understand it. >I feel no great compunction to school you morally, or to teach you basic precepts from your own religion. I will say one thing - I am 100% certain that your Jesus Christ would be on my side of this debate - not yours. This statement proves that you know very little of my religious inclinations. You may want to stop making presumptions like this soon -- it hasn't served you very well so far.