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I realize I have next to no understanding on how long distance energy transport works. How does one transport energy over such a long distance ? Wouldn't there

I realize I have next to no understanding on how long distance energy transport works. How does one transport energy over such a long distance ? Wouldn't there be massive loss in form of heat due to the fact that cables are not perfect conductor ? I kinda understand that normal cables goes around this by having high-voltage (and needing a transformer to step down the volage for home usage - much safer!), but I assume this is only good for 100s of km. Does that scale up to thousands of km ? Or do they assume that Australia is so energy rich that it doesn't matter if there are big losses ? Can we do the same in Europe and put massive solar panels in the desert of North Africa and import the energy northwards ? (I realize this is a super naive approach, and the main problem is energy storage rather than generation)

porridgeraisin 2y ago
[flagged]
- tux2bsd 2y ago
  [dead]
throwup238 2y ago
> Can we do the same in Europe and put massive solar panels in the desert of North Africa and import the energy northwards ? Yes, they’re actively working on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgrid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgrid
- xvilka 2y ago
  Unlike European supergrid there are not many news about this project. And given that last mention was in 2013 and completion date is set for 2020-2025, it looks abandoned.
  - Tade0 2y ago
    There's another attempt currently in the works: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Power_Project https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Po...
- cinntaile 2y ago
  Is this really still a thing? There hasn't been any news in many years now.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- seb1204 2y ago
  There is or also was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec
- paganel 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    If anything, covering a decent chunk of the Sahara with solar panels may be the only thing capable of stopping or at least reducing the speed of desertification. It's a virtually dead "eco"system anyway, it can't be fucked up more than it already is.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      > ... it can't be fucked up more than it already is. Oh, there's probably a bunch of ways to make it worse. ;) The pro-nuclear crowd is going to want somewhere to dump a bunch of extremely toxic waste. That stuff could probably make it worse. ;)
    - paganel 2y ago
      The desert is still a living ecosystem, that was my point. And quite a pristine one. I guess not anymore, because we need to “save” nature by destroying the few bits of pristine nature we still have left. > It's a virtually dead "eco"system anyway, it can't be fucked up more than it already is. That is just wrong on many levels.
defrost 2y ago
The starting point for this is High-voltage direct current (HVDC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current which is not the "regular" AC multiphase power transmission. There are existing HVDC links in Europe to join various unsync'd parts of the European grid and its good for quite long legs between stations (there will be a few between Australia and Singapore). Yes, there's also an aspect that Northern Australia has so much open space and sunshine that transmission losses can be sustained ans still turn a profit.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- PetitPrince 2y ago
  Neat, thanks ! Browsing other Wikipedia articles let me know that one of the longest existing HVDC is the Rio Madeira HVDC system[1] at 2375 km, and the longest underwater HDVC is the North Sea Link [2] at 720 km So while the Singaporian-Australian link still feel monumental it's not as science-fictiony as I initially thought. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Madeira_HVDC_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Madeira_HVDC_system [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
ulfw 2y ago
Which Northern African country would you pick that is trustworthy enough to have your economy depend on for energy need over the coming decades?
- Prbeek 2y ago
  One that they(EU) don't see bombing or invading
- patrickk 2y ago
  One proposal is to link the UK to Morocco, which would supply up to 8% of the UK's electricity consumption with a single project. The site would generate 24/7 clean power by a combination of predictable sunshine, predictable wind patterns, and the remainder by batteries. From reading about the project, it seems the biggest hurdle by far is getting the lengthy cable built. The project is forced to figure out the manufacturing of it's own cable, as there doesn't seem to be enough global capacity to provide it to them externally.
- Yeul 2y ago
  Morocco? If Europeans can stop for 10 minutes whining about democracy and human rights and take a page from China's playbook we can take Africa back.
  - ulfw 2y ago
    Oh Europeans shall 'take Africa back' in your opinion? Wow ok
xiconfjs 2y ago
"Depending on voltage level and construction details, HVDC transmission losses are quoted at 3.5% per 1,000 km (620 mi), about 50% less than AC (6.7%) lines at the same voltage." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...
- pyrale 2y ago
  Over such long distance, the issue with AC wouldn't be losses but the absurd capacitance of such a long line. That would basically mean you'd need a compensation station every few 100s of kms, which doesn't work very well when you're in the middle of the sea.
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  And note this is exponential. 2,000km costs you 3.5% + 3.5% + 3.5% * 3.5%. By the time you're running wires around a planet that really adds up.
Mistletoe 2y ago
>HVDC transmission lines have losses of about 3.5% per 1,000 kilometers, while HVAC lines have losses of about 6.7% at the same voltage.
aitchnyu 2y ago
The Moore-like downward costs of solar panels and battery backup killed satellite mounted panels, worldwide grids with cables across Pacific and Atlantic oceans, mechanical trackers etc. Seems Singapore is an outlier.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Singapore is really small and mostly already urban. There's some space for roof-mounting panels but otherwise it's really at a premium.
  - evolve2k 2y ago
    From what I understand Singapore is also connected into a larger Asian grid, albeit mostly running on fossil fuels currently. So this has extra impact also, as once they unlock Singapore, they could potentially start to push renewables into much more of the grid. So yeah a big deal if they can pull it off, hope they do.
seb1204 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec comes to mind.
DrNosferatu 2y ago
You have to go DC for long distance (~lambda/4) power line transmission: the closer you get to that conductor length, the more power will be radiated away.
aaronmdjones 2y ago
> How does one transport energy over such a long distance ? Wouldn't there be massive loss in form of heat due to the fact that cables are not perfect conductor ? Losses in power transmission are a function of the current (P = I^2 R; power dissipated = current squared multiplied by cable resistance). Using a thicker cable reduces its resistance, lowering losses. HVDC transmits power at -- as its name implies -- a much higher voltage; increasing the voltage means you need to draw less current in order to consume the same amount of power, lowering losses again. It's why electrical grid transmission networks within countries run at a couple hundred kV. The UK uses 275kV and 400kV for transmission for example, stepping it down to 33kV and 11kV at substations, before it is finally stepped down to 230V for light commercial and residential consumption. EDIT: A fantastic demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjY31x0m3d8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjY31x0m3d8
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  You are describing what happens with thermal losses, which as you say can be addressed by running up the voltage. But corona loss goes entirely at voltage and will come to dominate if you try kicking the voltage too much above current levels.
sofixa 2y ago
> Can we do the same in Europe and put massive solar panels in the desert of North Africa and import the energy northwards ? (I realize this is a super naive approach, and the main problem is energy storage rather than generation) A very good video from Real Engineering explains that no, not really: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o&t=1s
dreamcompiler 2y ago
Higher voltage = longer distance. And it's DC so transformers are not involved. Power electronics is used to step the voltage up/down as needed.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

porridgeraisin 2y ago

[flagged]

tux2bsd 2y ago
[dead]

throwup238 2y ago

> Can we do the same in Europe and put massive solar panels in the desert of North Africa and import the energy northwards ? Yes, they’re actively working on it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgrid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medgrid

xvilka 2y ago
Unlike European supergrid there are not many news about this project. And given that last mention was in 2013 and completion date is set for 2020-2025, it looks abandoned.
- Tade0 2y ago
  There's another attempt currently in the works: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Power_Project https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xlinks_Morocco%E2%80%93UK_Po...
cinntaile 2y ago
Is this really still a thing? There hasn't been any news in many years now.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
seb1204 2y ago
There is or also was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec
paganel 2y ago
[flagged]
- mschuster91 2y ago
  If anything, covering a decent chunk of the Sahara with solar panels may be the only thing capable of stopping or at least reducing the speed of desertification. It's a virtually dead "eco"system anyway, it can't be fucked up more than it already is.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    > ... it can't be fucked up more than it already is. Oh, there's probably a bunch of ways to make it worse. ;) The pro-nuclear crowd is going to want somewhere to dump a bunch of extremely toxic waste. That stuff could probably make it worse. ;)
  - paganel 2y ago
    The desert is still a living ecosystem, that was my point. And quite a pristine one. I guess not anymore, because we need to “save” nature by destroying the few bits of pristine nature we still have left. > It's a virtually dead "eco"system anyway, it can't be fucked up more than it already is. That is just wrong on many levels.

defrost 2y ago

The starting point for this is High-voltage direct current (HVDC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current which is not the "regular" AC multiphase power transmission. There are existing HVDC links in Europe to join various unsync'd parts of the European grid and its good for quite long legs between stations (there will be a few between Australia and Singapore). Yes, there's also an aspect that Northern Australia has so much open space and sunshine that transmission losses can be sustained ans still turn a profit.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
PetitPrince 2y ago
Neat, thanks ! Browsing other Wikipedia articles let me know that one of the longest existing HVDC is the Rio Madeira HVDC system[1] at 2375 km, and the longest underwater HDVC is the North Sea Link [2] at 720 km So while the Singaporian-Australian link still feel monumental it's not as science-fictiony as I initially thought. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Madeira_HVDC_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Madeira_HVDC_system [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

ulfw 2y ago

Which Northern African country would you pick that is trustworthy enough to have your economy depend on for energy need over the coming decades?

Prbeek 2y ago
One that they(EU) don't see bombing or invading
patrickk 2y ago
One proposal is to link the UK to Morocco, which would supply up to 8% of the UK's electricity consumption with a single project. The site would generate 24/7 clean power by a combination of predictable sunshine, predictable wind patterns, and the remainder by batteries. From reading about the project, it seems the biggest hurdle by far is getting the lengthy cable built. The project is forced to figure out the manufacturing of it's own cable, as there doesn't seem to be enough global capacity to provide it to them externally.
Yeul 2y ago
Morocco? If Europeans can stop for 10 minutes whining about democracy and human rights and take a page from China's playbook we can take Africa back.
- ulfw 2y ago
  Oh Europeans shall 'take Africa back' in your opinion? Wow ok

xiconfjs 2y ago

"Depending on voltage level and construction details, HVDC transmission losses are quoted at 3.5% per 1,000 km (620 mi), about 50% less than AC (6.7%) lines at the same voltage." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current#Ad...

pyrale 2y ago
Over such long distance, the issue with AC wouldn't be losses but the absurd capacitance of such a long line. That would basically mean you'd need a compensation station every few 100s of kms, which doesn't work very well when you're in the middle of the sea.
LorenPechtel 2y ago
And note this is exponential. 2,000km costs you 3.5% + 3.5% + 3.5% * 3.5%. By the time you're running wires around a planet that really adds up.

Mistletoe 2y ago

>HVDC transmission lines have losses of about 3.5% per 1,000 kilometers, while HVAC lines have losses of about 6.7% at the same voltage.

aitchnyu 2y ago

The Moore-like downward costs of solar panels and battery backup killed satellite mounted panels, worldwide grids with cables across Pacific and Atlantic oceans, mechanical trackers etc. Seems Singapore is an outlier.

pjc50 2y ago
Singapore is really small and mostly already urban. There's some space for roof-mounting panels but otherwise it's really at a premium.
- evolve2k 2y ago
  From what I understand Singapore is also connected into a larger Asian grid, albeit mostly running on fossil fuels currently. So this has extra impact also, as once they unlock Singapore, they could potentially start to push renewables into much more of the grid. So yeah a big deal if they can pull it off, hope they do.

seb1204 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec comes to mind.

DrNosferatu 2y ago

You have to go DC for long distance (~lambda/4) power line transmission: the closer you get to that conductor length, the more power will be radiated away.

aaronmdjones 2y ago

> How does one transport energy over such a long distance ? Wouldn't there be massive loss in form of heat due to the fact that cables are not perfect conductor ? Losses in power transmission are a function of the current (P = I^2 R; power dissipated = current squared multiplied by cable resistance). Using a thicker cable reduces its resistance, lowering losses. HVDC transmits power at -- as its name implies -- a much higher voltage; increasing the voltage means you need to draw less current in order to consume the same amount of power, lowering losses again. It's why electrical grid transmission networks within countries run at a couple hundred kV. The UK uses 275kV and 400kV for transmission for example, stepping it down to 33kV and 11kV at substations, before it is finally stepped down to 230V for light commercial and residential consumption. EDIT: A fantastic demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjY31x0m3d8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjY31x0m3d8

LorenPechtel 2y ago
You are describing what happens with thermal losses, which as you say can be addressed by running up the voltage. But corona loss goes entirely at voltage and will come to dominate if you try kicking the voltage too much above current levels.

sofixa 2y ago

> Can we do the same in Europe and put massive solar panels in the desert of North Africa and import the energy northwards ? (I realize this is a super naive approach, and the main problem is energy storage rather than generation) A very good video from Real Engineering explains that no, not really: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o&t=1s

dreamcompiler 2y ago

Higher voltage = longer distance. And it's DC so transformers are not involved. Power electronics is used to step the voltage up/down as needed.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]