4 ms·

My threat model is accidentally installing malware that reads the database of my passwords. I trust my KeepassXC database because I use a strong and long passwo

My threat model is accidentally installing malware that reads the database of my passwords. I trust my KeepassXC database because I use a strong and long password, so even if malware can read my KeepassXC file, it won't be able to extract the passwords. I feel like Firefox is not as safe.

xvector 2y ago
Your malware would still need the password for the PBKDF step to decrypt the Firefox database
eesmith 2y ago
So malware which installs a key scanner to read everything you enter is outside of your threat model, as is external surveillance to record what you type. Choose a password manager which you like. I like having a paper book with a dumb-ass encryption scheme, because my threat model is that I am not going to worry about physical attacks, and servers will detect attempts to brute-force the dumb-ass scheme by adding delays after the first few failures. I use Firefox's manager for my Mastodon accounts, because no one cares for my 10 followers, and the instance manager can resolve things if needed.
- 0xEF 2y ago
  Isn't your last paragraph part of the problem, though? To paraphrase, you use Firefox's password manager for things you don't care about. So, those simple passwords are tied to small accounts that, individually add up to nothing, but together start to build a little cache of your emails, throwaway passwords and other tiny bits of data that all get collated with other data scraped about you. This much larger data cache then gets sold and used I attacks like credential stuffing to access even more data, etc. You're posture is assuming that if it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't matter at all, and that simply is not true.
  - dwattttt 2y ago
    He stated the higher security model he uses; a paper book. As well as his threat model, which is pretty coherent and relevant in this modern age. I'd love to see someone "hack" his book, it would be quite the impressive hack.
    - psychoslave 2y ago
      Surprising that someone care to invest so much effort in it unless it can unlock some institutional level threats to leverage on for some geo-political negotiation or at least plots between big companies. But impressive hack, not necessarily. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/2176/ https://xkcd.com/2176/
  - eesmith 2y ago
    > little cache of your emails, throwaway passwords I have five passwords in my Firefox manager. (More if I include the ones which are no longer valid, like a few ftp passwords, and passwords to routers I no longer use.) I think I'm safe. I avoid online services which require identity as much as I can, because yes, any data builds up. Which means, yes, I buy things in stores, not online, I use cash, not credit/debit/e-cash, and I don't use apps. If you do use online services, apps, etc., then it sure feels like you are assuming that information leak doesn't matter to you, so it doesn't matter at all.
- Fokamul 2y ago
  Trust me, automated bot sending malware always care about your accounts.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    With 50 people or so people active on my instance, the change will be noticed quickly, the account suspended, and the owner will get a hold of me through other means. Everything I post is with the knowledge it will be public, analyzed, regurgitated, and held against me in a court of law.
gruez 2y ago
>I trust my KeepassXC database because I use a strong and long password, so even if malware can read my KeepassXC file, it won't be able to extract the passwords. I feel like Firefox is not as safe. You can set a "primary password" for firefox's password manager, meaning that you first have to enter a password before you can access the stored passwords. That should provide equivalent security to using KeepassXC.
- reddalo 2y ago
  > You can set a "primary password" for firefox's password manager Wow. I've been using Firefox for 18+ years and I've never knew about this feature! Thanks!

xvector 2y ago

Your malware would still need the password for the PBKDF step to decrypt the Firefox database

eesmith 2y ago

So malware which installs a key scanner to read everything you enter is outside of your threat model, as is external surveillance to record what you type. Choose a password manager which you like. I like having a paper book with a dumb-ass encryption scheme, because my threat model is that I am not going to worry about physical attacks, and servers will detect attempts to brute-force the dumb-ass scheme by adding delays after the first few failures. I use Firefox's manager for my Mastodon accounts, because no one cares for my 10 followers, and the instance manager can resolve things if needed.

0xEF 2y ago
Isn't your last paragraph part of the problem, though? To paraphrase, you use Firefox's password manager for things you don't care about. So, those simple passwords are tied to small accounts that, individually add up to nothing, but together start to build a little cache of your emails, throwaway passwords and other tiny bits of data that all get collated with other data scraped about you. This much larger data cache then gets sold and used I attacks like credential stuffing to access even more data, etc. You're posture is assuming that if it doesn't matter to you, then it doesn't matter at all, and that simply is not true.
- dwattttt 2y ago
  He stated the higher security model he uses; a paper book. As well as his threat model, which is pretty coherent and relevant in this modern age. I'd love to see someone "hack" his book, it would be quite the impressive hack.
  - psychoslave 2y ago
    Surprising that someone care to invest so much effort in it unless it can unlock some institutional level threats to leverage on for some geo-political negotiation or at least plots between big companies. But impressive hack, not necessarily. https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/2176/ https://xkcd.com/2176/
- eesmith 2y ago
  > little cache of your emails, throwaway passwords I have five passwords in my Firefox manager. (More if I include the ones which are no longer valid, like a few ftp passwords, and passwords to routers I no longer use.) I think I'm safe. I avoid online services which require identity as much as I can, because yes, any data builds up. Which means, yes, I buy things in stores, not online, I use cash, not credit/debit/e-cash, and I don't use apps. If you do use online services, apps, etc., then it sure feels like you are assuming that information leak doesn't matter to you, so it doesn't matter at all.
Fokamul 2y ago
Trust me, automated bot sending malware always care about your accounts.
- eesmith 2y ago
  With 50 people or so people active on my instance, the change will be noticed quickly, the account suspended, and the owner will get a hold of me through other means. Everything I post is with the knowledge it will be public, analyzed, regurgitated, and held against me in a court of law.

gruez 2y ago

>I trust my KeepassXC database because I use a strong and long password, so even if malware can read my KeepassXC file, it won't be able to extract the passwords. I feel like Firefox is not as safe. You can set a "primary password" for firefox's password manager, meaning that you first have to enter a password before you can access the stored passwords. That should provide equivalent security to using KeepassXC.

reddalo 2y ago
> You can set a "primary password" for firefox's password manager Wow. I've been using Firefox for 18+ years and I've never knew about this feature! Thanks!