3 ms·

Its not about how concise or short your code looks, its how about much time the new intern coming tomorrow needs to understand those 1000 line files. I find the

Its not about how concise or short your code looks, its how about much time the new intern coming tomorrow needs to understand those 1000 line files. I find the syntax very hard to remember and confusing

rochak 2y ago
Pretty much what I feel about Rust
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Explain more?
progx 2y ago
And in times of Copilot & others writing become less and less a problem, as code completion works very well. Like this example: https://civet.dev/#everything-is-an-expression https://civet.dev/#everything-is-an-expression `items = for item of items`, in js you type `for`and copilot wrote nearly the full correct for-code. So you have to type not much and can read it easy.
- nine_k 2y ago
  To reiterate the point above: writing is not the biggest problem. reading is. (Terse Perl may be delightful to write, as long as you still remember exactly what you wrote and why. But not after that.)
- mplewis 2y ago
  From my experience, I predict that LLM code completion will not work very well when using a language like Civet. Copilot is good when working with something where the idiomatic patterns are common, widespread, and hard to screw up. Civet has low adoption, uses much looser syntax (bracing, whitespace), and lacks the rigor of common TypeScript code.
  - Yahivin 2y ago
    I was pleasantly surprised with how well Copilot picked it up. Civet doesn't have that many truly new language features, most of them are from existing languages and used in a similar way. Copilot is really good at matching what you are doing near the completion so I was impressed with how well it did with a new language.
- diatone 2y ago
  It’s interesting in this example that the docs try to show that a for loop is useful, when there’s already an idiomatic approach here: ``` const result = items.map( i => i.length ? i.toUpperCase() : ‘<empty>’) ``` I think things get interesting here when different kinds of iterators come into play (eg generators, async-await for loops, non-array iterables). Shame the landing page doesn’t touch on that at all.
- croes 2y ago
  If you don’t understand the code code completion becomes cargo cult programming.
- wruza 2y ago
  I think it’s time to reveal the shocking ancient knowledge people weren’t ready to deal with before: textmate snippets. foro for ($1 of $2) { $0 } touc toUpperCase() le length map map(x => $0) And so on. Seriously, typing code is some '90s activity since forever. Using copilot for this is akin to hitting a nail with a microscope.
  - azemetre 2y ago
    I don’t understand your last part of the comment. What are you saying copilot should be used for?
  - int_19h 2y ago
    CoPilot completion is much more extensive than any of these.
- chrisandchris 2y ago
  We must be living on different worlds. Code completion is sometimes interesting, but being 50% of the time correct still means 50% of the time I have to fix the code that just got written. And it just gets horrible, if I can't trust the good 50% - nothings harder than reading code.
speedgoose 2y ago
Some people don't code for the interns but to have fun. But I agree this isn't a very enterprise programming language, à la Java or Golang.
- gr4vityWall 2y ago
  I think another way to express the same idea in a less business-like language is: it's nice to be able to come back to your side project after 6 months and be able to quickly make sense of it. > Some people don't code for the interns but to have fun. I don't think the person you were replying to necessarily disagrees with you there. But their post was phrased in such a way that seemed like business was the only focus that mattered, yeah.
  - f33d5173 2y ago
    If you write all your code in civet, them you'll have no trouble understanding civet code in 6 months. Besides that, there aren't many random symbols as additions, it's mostly logical extensions of the javascript syntax which are easy to understand if you know javascript.
    - gr4vityWall 2y ago
      > If you write all your code in civet, them you'll have no trouble understanding civet code in 6 months. I hope so. > it's mostly logical extensions of the javascript syntax which are easy to understand if you know javascript. They didn't look thatneasy to understand to me, and a lot of other people judging by the comments.
inquisitor27552 2y ago
yea this i see it as moving physical abstraction into mental abstraction save few lines of code but costs more mental ram
croes 2y ago
The new intern or you in a year reviewing your own code.
no_wizard 2y ago
I sure hope they see it and realize it is most likely in desperate need of refactor

rochak 2y ago

Pretty much what I feel about Rust

aurareturn 2y ago
Explain more?

progx 2y ago

And in times of Copilot & others writing become less and less a problem, as code completion works very well. Like this example: https://civet.dev/#everything-is-an-expression https://civet.dev/#everything-is-an-expression `items = for item of items`, in js you type `for`and copilot wrote nearly the full correct for-code. So you have to type not much and can read it easy.

nine_k 2y ago
To reiterate the point above: writing is not the biggest problem. reading is. (Terse Perl may be delightful to write, as long as you still remember exactly what you wrote and why. But not after that.)
mplewis 2y ago
From my experience, I predict that LLM code completion will not work very well when using a language like Civet. Copilot is good when working with something where the idiomatic patterns are common, widespread, and hard to screw up. Civet has low adoption, uses much looser syntax (bracing, whitespace), and lacks the rigor of common TypeScript code.
- Yahivin 2y ago
  I was pleasantly surprised with how well Copilot picked it up. Civet doesn't have that many truly new language features, most of them are from existing languages and used in a similar way. Copilot is really good at matching what you are doing near the completion so I was impressed with how well it did with a new language.
diatone 2y ago
It’s interesting in this example that the docs try to show that a for loop is useful, when there’s already an idiomatic approach here: ``` const result = items.map( i => i.length ? i.toUpperCase() : ‘<empty>’) ``` I think things get interesting here when different kinds of iterators come into play (eg generators, async-await for loops, non-array iterables). Shame the landing page doesn’t touch on that at all.
croes 2y ago
If you don’t understand the code code completion becomes cargo cult programming.
wruza 2y ago
I think it’s time to reveal the shocking ancient knowledge people weren’t ready to deal with before: textmate snippets. foro for ($1 of $2) { $0 } touc toUpperCase() le length map map(x => $0) And so on. Seriously, typing code is some '90s activity since forever. Using copilot for this is akin to hitting a nail with a microscope.
- azemetre 2y ago
  I don’t understand your last part of the comment. What are you saying copilot should be used for?
- int_19h 2y ago
  CoPilot completion is much more extensive than any of these.
chrisandchris 2y ago
We must be living on different worlds. Code completion is sometimes interesting, but being 50% of the time correct still means 50% of the time I have to fix the code that just got written. And it just gets horrible, if I can't trust the good 50% - nothings harder than reading code.

speedgoose 2y ago

Some people don't code for the interns but to have fun. But I agree this isn't a very enterprise programming language, à la Java or Golang.

gr4vityWall 2y ago
I think another way to express the same idea in a less business-like language is: it's nice to be able to come back to your side project after 6 months and be able to quickly make sense of it. > Some people don't code for the interns but to have fun. I don't think the person you were replying to necessarily disagrees with you there. But their post was phrased in such a way that seemed like business was the only focus that mattered, yeah.
- f33d5173 2y ago
  If you write all your code in civet, them you'll have no trouble understanding civet code in 6 months. Besides that, there aren't many random symbols as additions, it's mostly logical extensions of the javascript syntax which are easy to understand if you know javascript.
  - gr4vityWall 2y ago
    > If you write all your code in civet, them you'll have no trouble understanding civet code in 6 months. I hope so. > it's mostly logical extensions of the javascript syntax which are easy to understand if you know javascript. They didn't look thatneasy to understand to me, and a lot of other people judging by the comments.

inquisitor27552 2y ago

yea this i see it as moving physical abstraction into mental abstraction save few lines of code but costs more mental ram

croes 2y ago

The new intern or you in a year reviewing your own code.

no_wizard 2y ago

I sure hope they see it and realize it is most likely in desperate need of refactor