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The first question I see is: 1. Draw a line around the number or letter of this sentence. I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of

The first question I see is: 1. Draw a line around the number or letter of this sentence. I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means.

alexey-salmin 2y ago
You need to draw a line around the "1." part
- x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
  Number OR Letter, and it never specifies which one. It doesn't say first or last, or anything.
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    "1" is the number of the sentence, not a number in the sentence. As in "this is the sentence number one". I don't claim this test is useful, but as a matter of fact the first question is not hard.
- KingMob 2y ago
  It's debatable whether "1." is part of the sentence (and thus should be left alone). We wouldn't consider a non-alphanumeric bullet point to be part of a sentence. Regardless of which you chose, if the examiner wished to disqualify you, they could simply say it's the opposite.
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    No one says it's a part of the sentence. It's a number of the sentence, as in "this is the sentence number one".
    - KingMob 2y ago
      I get you, but to my ears, the phrasing itself implies it's part of the sentence (unless the common phrasing was different back then). Most people would say "The number _preceding_ this sentence". "of this" sounds like it's part of the sentence.
- cryptoz 2y ago
  That is wrong and you have failed the test. If you include the . you have clearly misunderstood the question. It did not indicate to draw a line around the number or letter and dot. Since you included the dot we will fail you. We are aware the question did not indicate the dot or not and it doesn’t matter. You failed, bye!
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    I don't argue that it's impossible for the examiner to screw you on the commas — that's always a possibility with an open-ended question. And yet this doesn't make all open-ended questions bad, it just makes then inappropriate for a situation with an adversarial interviewer (which I do agree include the voting process). However I argue that the question by itself is fine: it is well defined and has only one reasonable answer. No one presented any other sensible answer so far.
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      Here we have a subjective determination of objectivity.
      - alexey-salmin 2y ago
        Correct. This is how tests work most of the time in real life (open-ended, subjective) and attempts to fully remove ambiguity are often harmful. My problem with the whole discussion here is that I actually fail to come up with an ambiguous answer to this question that I subjectively find reasonable. Can you positivity contribute by providing an alternative interpretation that you personally would find more plausible? Otherwise complains about subjectively are hollow. Everything is subjective but it only matters in cases people actually disagree.
        mannykannot 2y ago
        As the first sentence of your reply to me effectively acknowledges that this thread has not objectively identified a unique correct answer, what I (or you) personally find plausible is beside the point. That being said, in the very post you are replying to, cryptoz has already implied an alternative that is no more subjective than yours, and which is also highly appropriate, given the covert purpose of questions such as these. > ...attempts to fully remove ambiguity are often harmful. Really? I'd like to see some real-life examples that are not just further examples of bad question-writing. Regardless, this is beside the point here, where there is a seemingly insurmountably high bar for making the case that removing ambiguity would make the situation worse (to be clear, the problem with tests like this is not just that an examiner might screw you, but that they are intended to be used that way.)
Phlebsy 2y ago
Meanwhile I'm wondering what 'draw a line around' something means, when they use circle in other parts. If they meant circle, they'd have said circle, no?
computerfriend 2y ago
Good luck drawing a line around anything except a point at infinity.
- didgeoridoo 2y ago
  It isn’t a literacy test, it’s a non-Euclidean geometry test!
ggambetta 2y ago
I thought the "number or letter" in that sentence is the "a" in "Draw a line".
roenxi 2y ago
> I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means. But then you can't believe it has two answers. If you don't understand the question you can't make any claims about it except maybe that you believe it is incoherent. As alexey-salmin says, the only reasonable interpretation is to circle the 1. to left of the question. To claim that has 2 answers is similar to claiming a "Find x" style question has two answers (solving an equation vs. circling x). No, the question only has one reasonable interpretation. If the examiner is being unreasonable it is not a problem with the question and not something that can be deduced by examining the question.

The first question I see is: 1. Draw a line around the number or letter of this sentence. I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means.

alexey-salmin 2y ago

You need to draw a line around the "1." part

x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
Number OR Letter, and it never specifies which one. It doesn't say first or last, or anything.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  "1" is the number of the sentence, not a number in the sentence. As in "this is the sentence number one". I don't claim this test is useful, but as a matter of fact the first question is not hard.
KingMob 2y ago
It's debatable whether "1." is part of the sentence (and thus should be left alone). We wouldn't consider a non-alphanumeric bullet point to be part of a sentence. Regardless of which you chose, if the examiner wished to disqualify you, they could simply say it's the opposite.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  No one says it's a part of the sentence. It's a number of the sentence, as in "this is the sentence number one".
  - KingMob 2y ago
    I get you, but to my ears, the phrasing itself implies it's part of the sentence (unless the common phrasing was different back then). Most people would say "The number _preceding_ this sentence". "of this" sounds like it's part of the sentence.
cryptoz 2y ago
That is wrong and you have failed the test. If you include the . you have clearly misunderstood the question. It did not indicate to draw a line around the number or letter and dot. Since you included the dot we will fail you. We are aware the question did not indicate the dot or not and it doesn’t matter. You failed, bye!
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  I don't argue that it's impossible for the examiner to screw you on the commas — that's always a possibility with an open-ended question. And yet this doesn't make all open-ended questions bad, it just makes then inappropriate for a situation with an adversarial interviewer (which I do agree include the voting process). However I argue that the question by itself is fine: it is well defined and has only one reasonable answer. No one presented any other sensible answer so far.
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    Here we have a subjective determination of objectivity.
    - alexey-salmin 2y ago
      Correct. This is how tests work most of the time in real life (open-ended, subjective) and attempts to fully remove ambiguity are often harmful. My problem with the whole discussion here is that I actually fail to come up with an ambiguous answer to this question that I subjectively find reasonable. Can you positivity contribute by providing an alternative interpretation that you personally would find more plausible? Otherwise complains about subjectively are hollow. Everything is subjective but it only matters in cases people actually disagree.
      - mannykannot 2y ago
        As the first sentence of your reply to me effectively acknowledges that this thread has not objectively identified a unique correct answer, what I (or you) personally find plausible is beside the point. That being said, in the very post you are replying to, cryptoz has already implied an alternative that is no more subjective than yours, and which is also highly appropriate, given the covert purpose of questions such as these. > ...attempts to fully remove ambiguity are often harmful. Really? I'd like to see some real-life examples that are not just further examples of bad question-writing. Regardless, this is beside the point here, where there is a seemingly insurmountably high bar for making the case that removing ambiguity would make the situation worse (to be clear, the problem with tests like this is not just that an examiner might screw you, but that they are intended to be used that way.)

Phlebsy 2y ago

Meanwhile I'm wondering what 'draw a line around' something means, when they use circle in other parts. If they meant circle, they'd have said circle, no?

computerfriend 2y ago

Good luck drawing a line around anything except a point at infinity.

didgeoridoo 2y ago
It isn’t a literacy test, it’s a non-Euclidean geometry test!

ggambetta 2y ago

I thought the "number or letter" in that sentence is the "a" in "Draw a line".

roenxi 2y ago

> I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means. But then you can't believe it has two answers. If you don't understand the question you can't make any claims about it except maybe that you believe it is incoherent. As alexey-salmin says, the only reasonable interpretation is to circle the 1. to left of the question. To claim that has 2 answers is similar to claiming a "Find x" style question has two answers (solving an equation vs. circling x). No, the question only has one reasonable interpretation. If the examiner is being unreasonable it is not a problem with the question and not something that can be deduced by examining the question.