4 ms·

It's possible. It was designed to be. It was used because southern Blacks actually did have a lower literacy rate than Whites at the time and this was seen as

It's possible. It was designed to be. It was used because southern Blacks actually did have a lower literacy rate than Whites at the time and this was seen as the most expedient "filter" they could create. The real racism was in all the ways to bypass the test. Grandfather clauses, land ownership clauses, "demonstrated understanding" options. Most White people challenged by the test wouldn't ever need to actually confront it. These weren't the only requirements either. You had to be of "good character" and "understand the duties and obligations of citizenship under a republican form of government" and to be able to "read _and_ write." Finally even if you were Black and managed all of this it wasn't at all a guarantee that your registration or vote would be accepted. Sometimes this understanding would be communicated in an act of violence. The test is a tiny archival curiosity created by a much more overt system.

tptacek 2y ago
It's not possible. Several of the questions have multiple valid answers. It's pretty obvious what the scheme is.
- akira2501 2y ago
  That comment is a reflection of my pedantry and I don't think we're actually disagreeing. It's not possible to know the right answers because there never were any. This means the test has no predictive power, not that it's impossible, and again, since some Whites unable to prove education did have to contend with this, it was designed that way intentionally. I feel "near impossible literacy test" is a terrible description. The "intentionally ambiguous literacy test" would be more apt. More worrying is I am unable to find a definitive provenance for this document. It suggests it was used in the early 1900s but the print quality and format seems unusual in several ways to me. Which is why I attempted to reduce it in favor of considering the rest of the system.
  - not2b 2y ago
    The reason that it is impossible is that there is no possible set of answers that would require the test-giver to acknowledge that a test-taker passed the test. Anyone the test-taker does not like can be failed.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      That's the point. Have you never applied for any sort of license or permit or anything that the government agency really doesn't want to hand out? They're all structured and written this way.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        Cite an example? This claim seems extraordinary, since people will sue over almost any process any local, state, or federal government creates.
        potato3732842 2y ago
        Prior to the ruling in NYSRPA v. Bruen putting a stop to the practice the LTC application processes in the less permissive towns in Massachusetts were well known to have forms of this sort in addition to the basic state form as well as undocumented "soft requirements" and "nice to haves". In Boston proper you basically had to write an essay, or maybe that was Cambridge, I forget.
        K0balt 2y ago
        This test is a caricature of the type of test mentioned in the post above yours, but yes, on many federal tests I have taken, there are a lot of questions that are intentionally tricky or have no correct answers, only less wrong ones. Most notably, pilot examinations for aviation and maritime certifications. I think they use these types of questions to exclude rule memorisation and test the ability to reason about the intention or relevant effects of rules and principles of the art involved. It seems like the intention is also to penalise the inability to reason about ambiguous situations, ensure that the subject can effectively divide attention (if you spend too much time focusing on these ambiguous situations trying to find a nonexistent perfect answer you will fail the test), and to filter out low cognitive ability in general. I’m not a test design expert, however, so ymmv.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    "Impossible" is apt, because it is not possible to answer all the questions on the test in an unambiguously, objectively correct manner. "Impossible" also refers to how the test administrators used it: in order to make voter registration impossible for some people. > That comment is a reflection of my pedantry Stop with this sort of thing, please. It's just noise, and doesn't add to the discussion.
- roenxi 2y ago
  Which question(s)? They all seem to have single answers to me. That being said, I would expect to fail this test.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    "Paris in the spring" is the one I fixated on, but lots of other examples downthread.
    - KingMob 2y ago
      Heheh, no voting for you! It's "Paris in the the spring", with two the's!
  - whaaaaat 2y ago
    "Spell backwards, forwards" Both "backwards" and "forwards" could be correctly interpreted as the adverb in this one. It could be asking you to "Spell the word backwards, in a forwards manner" or "Spell in a backwards manner, the word forwards". It's ambiguous enough that someone grading the test who wanted the disqualify you could make the case you got it wrong, no matter if you wrote "backwards" or "sdrawrof".
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    The first question I see is: 1. Draw a line around the number or letter of this sentence. I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means.
    - alexey-salmin 2y ago
      You need to draw a line around the "1." part
      - x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
        Number OR Letter, and it never specifies which one. It doesn't say first or last, or anything.
- x0x0 2y ago
  eg... > 28. Divide a vertical line in two equal parts by bisecting it with a curved horizontal line that is only straight at its spot bisection of the vertical. I have no idea what a curved horizontal line is. A horizontal line is parallel to the X axis of the XY plane and has no curvature.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    Clearly racists are just living in non-euclidean space.
- K0balt 2y ago
  Looking at the test from a purely analytical perspective, I only found one that had several correct solutions, the one with the numbers in the circles that directs it he subject to draw a line passing under and over different elements. I’d be interested to know which ones you saw as ambiguous? FWIW the test is obviously mostly about tricking the test taker, and not that much about literacy. Along with one question that seems possibly designed to filter out people with a non-Christian interpretation of the cross as a geometric figure.
  - camtarn 2y ago
    "Write right from the left to the right as you see it spelled here" Could be answered with: right right from the left to the right right from the left to the right as you see it spelled here
    - K0balt 2y ago
      Except only the first case can be written without quotes. It should have quotes, but it is valid without them. When you have two or more words, quotes are required to denote the words to quote. Only in the single word case can quotes be omitted without ambiguity. That one is tricky but not actually ambiguous.
      - camtarn 2y ago
        There is no actual rule that requires quotes to make something a valid sentence. For instance, "We need to make sure you agree to the conditions. Write I agree on the line below." is pretty unambiguous in its intention if you assume the writer is communicating in good faith, even if it could be quoted to make it clearer. In the case of the original test, the lack of good faith is the entire point, which is why the sentence is considered ambiguous in this case. In a different context where you could assume good faith, you would be correct.
        K0balt 2y ago
        There may be no actual rule (are their actual rules other than rules of thumb in English?) , but there is only one case in which quotation marks -could- be omitted in this context without being ambiguous, and that would be the case where only the proximate word was considered. Any other interpretation fails to produce a consistent, sensible rule; therefore the only logical conclusion is to assume the single word case. The single word interpretation is clearly the less wrong answer. Many tests accepted as being legitimate and foundational to regulating aviation, marine navigation, and other important occupations include questions that have no “right” answer, only a less wrong one. This is intentional and useful to judge certain aspects of understanding and judgment in those safety critical industries. I don’t think this type of question is relevant to a “literacy” test, though. I agree that the test is clearly given in bad faith, and is largely not a literacy test but rather a series of trick questions that require much more than literacy to analyse - but I reject the premise that this question in particular has no correct answer. The question is in effect a multiple choice question with a few specific granular possible answers, with one being clearly less wrong than the others by process of elimination referencing the epistemological content contained in the question, with the operative assumption being that there is a correct answer. The question would be more at home in a test to probe advanced reasoning or logic skills, perhaps even philosophy, but still it has exactly one arguably correct answer and therefore fails the bar for being irreducible in its ambiguity. If you can provide a convincing argument based on a logical premise that supports an alternative answer other than the single word interpretation, I will be forced to reconsider my opinion. Until then, I maintain that this question has a correct answer. The fact that the test is administered in bad faith and the answers may be judged in bad faith is immaterial; the test Could be perfect and still be judged in bad faith, so there is no argument about the technical validity of the test material anchored to the good faith of the examiner. It can only be said that the process of the test and judgement is ambiguous, not the test itself, if the test itself is solvable. It can also be said that the test was not designed to serve its stated purpose, or was poorly designed for its purpose, and that it was not meant to be given in good faith, but none of these statements has bearing on the solvability of the test questions.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
analog31 2y ago
Ironically, if you don't have fair elections, then you don't have a republic.
- UncleSlacky 2y ago
  You do, just not a democratic one. "Republic" just means it's not a monarchy.
  - analog31 2y ago
    Indeed, I was thinking of an elective republic, which is also how I think the founders conceived it. Example from Federalist 57: >>> The elective mode of obtaining rulers is the characteristic policy of republican government. We can debate how electors are chosen, but if the elected choose their own electors, then it's not a republic.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
Not to mention the very first part of that test says that anyone that can demonstrate a certain education level doesn't need to test it, meaning that any people disadvantaged by the system in not having a (demonstrable) education - which would be a lot of Black people - would have to take the test. I don't think anyone with that necessary education would pass the test.

tptacek 2y ago

It's not possible. Several of the questions have multiple valid answers. It's pretty obvious what the scheme is.

akira2501 2y ago
That comment is a reflection of my pedantry and I don't think we're actually disagreeing. It's not possible to know the right answers because there never were any. This means the test has no predictive power, not that it's impossible, and again, since some Whites unable to prove education did have to contend with this, it was designed that way intentionally. I feel "near impossible literacy test" is a terrible description. The "intentionally ambiguous literacy test" would be more apt. More worrying is I am unable to find a definitive provenance for this document. It suggests it was used in the early 1900s but the print quality and format seems unusual in several ways to me. Which is why I attempted to reduce it in favor of considering the rest of the system.
- not2b 2y ago
  The reason that it is impossible is that there is no possible set of answers that would require the test-giver to acknowledge that a test-taker passed the test. Anyone the test-taker does not like can be failed.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    That's the point. Have you never applied for any sort of license or permit or anything that the government agency really doesn't want to hand out? They're all structured and written this way.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      Cite an example? This claim seems extraordinary, since people will sue over almost any process any local, state, or federal government creates.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        Prior to the ruling in NYSRPA v. Bruen putting a stop to the practice the LTC application processes in the less permissive towns in Massachusetts were well known to have forms of this sort in addition to the basic state form as well as undocumented "soft requirements" and "nice to haves". In Boston proper you basically had to write an essay, or maybe that was Cambridge, I forget.
      - K0balt 2y ago
        This test is a caricature of the type of test mentioned in the post above yours, but yes, on many federal tests I have taken, there are a lot of questions that are intentionally tricky or have no correct answers, only less wrong ones. Most notably, pilot examinations for aviation and maritime certifications. I think they use these types of questions to exclude rule memorisation and test the ability to reason about the intention or relevant effects of rules and principles of the art involved. It seems like the intention is also to penalise the inability to reason about ambiguous situations, ensure that the subject can effectively divide attention (if you spend too much time focusing on these ambiguous situations trying to find a nonexistent perfect answer you will fail the test), and to filter out low cognitive ability in general. I’m not a test design expert, however, so ymmv.
- kelnos 2y ago
  "Impossible" is apt, because it is not possible to answer all the questions on the test in an unambiguously, objectively correct manner. "Impossible" also refers to how the test administrators used it: in order to make voter registration impossible for some people. > That comment is a reflection of my pedantry Stop with this sort of thing, please. It's just noise, and doesn't add to the discussion.
roenxi 2y ago
Which question(s)? They all seem to have single answers to me. That being said, I would expect to fail this test.
- tptacek 2y ago
  "Paris in the spring" is the one I fixated on, but lots of other examples downthread.
  - KingMob 2y ago
    Heheh, no voting for you! It's "Paris in the the spring", with two the's!
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  "Spell backwards, forwards" Both "backwards" and "forwards" could be correctly interpreted as the adverb in this one. It could be asking you to "Spell the word backwards, in a forwards manner" or "Spell in a backwards manner, the word forwards". It's ambiguous enough that someone grading the test who wanted the disqualify you could make the case you got it wrong, no matter if you wrote "backwards" or "sdrawrof".
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  The first question I see is: 1. Draw a line around the number or letter of this sentence. I have no idea what "the number of this sentence" or "the letter of this sentence" even means.
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    You need to draw a line around the "1." part
    - x86_64Ubuntu 2y ago
      Number OR Letter, and it never specifies which one. It doesn't say first or last, or anything.
x0x0 2y ago
eg... > 28. Divide a vertical line in two equal parts by bisecting it with a curved horizontal line that is only straight at its spot bisection of the vertical. I have no idea what a curved horizontal line is. A horizontal line is parallel to the X axis of the XY plane and has no curvature.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Clearly racists are just living in non-euclidean space.
K0balt 2y ago
Looking at the test from a purely analytical perspective, I only found one that had several correct solutions, the one with the numbers in the circles that directs it he subject to draw a line passing under and over different elements. I’d be interested to know which ones you saw as ambiguous? FWIW the test is obviously mostly about tricking the test taker, and not that much about literacy. Along with one question that seems possibly designed to filter out people with a non-Christian interpretation of the cross as a geometric figure.
- camtarn 2y ago
  "Write right from the left to the right as you see it spelled here" Could be answered with: right right from the left to the right right from the left to the right as you see it spelled here
  - K0balt 2y ago
    Except only the first case can be written without quotes. It should have quotes, but it is valid without them. When you have two or more words, quotes are required to denote the words to quote. Only in the single word case can quotes be omitted without ambiguity. That one is tricky but not actually ambiguous.
    - camtarn 2y ago
      There is no actual rule that requires quotes to make something a valid sentence. For instance, "We need to make sure you agree to the conditions. Write I agree on the line below." is pretty unambiguous in its intention if you assume the writer is communicating in good faith, even if it could be quoted to make it clearer. In the case of the original test, the lack of good faith is the entire point, which is why the sentence is considered ambiguous in this case. In a different context where you could assume good faith, you would be correct.
      - K0balt 2y ago
        There may be no actual rule (are their actual rules other than rules of thumb in English?) , but there is only one case in which quotation marks -could- be omitted in this context without being ambiguous, and that would be the case where only the proximate word was considered. Any other interpretation fails to produce a consistent, sensible rule; therefore the only logical conclusion is to assume the single word case. The single word interpretation is clearly the less wrong answer. Many tests accepted as being legitimate and foundational to regulating aviation, marine navigation, and other important occupations include questions that have no “right” answer, only a less wrong one. This is intentional and useful to judge certain aspects of understanding and judgment in those safety critical industries. I don’t think this type of question is relevant to a “literacy” test, though. I agree that the test is clearly given in bad faith, and is largely not a literacy test but rather a series of trick questions that require much more than literacy to analyse - but I reject the premise that this question in particular has no correct answer. The question is in effect a multiple choice question with a few specific granular possible answers, with one being clearly less wrong than the others by process of elimination referencing the epistemological content contained in the question, with the operative assumption being that there is a correct answer. The question would be more at home in a test to probe advanced reasoning or logic skills, perhaps even philosophy, but still it has exactly one arguably correct answer and therefore fails the bar for being irreducible in its ambiguity. If you can provide a convincing argument based on a logical premise that supports an alternative answer other than the single word interpretation, I will be forced to reconsider my opinion. Until then, I maintain that this question has a correct answer. The fact that the test is administered in bad faith and the answers may be judged in bad faith is immaterial; the test Could be perfect and still be judged in bad faith, so there is no argument about the technical validity of the test material anchored to the good faith of the examiner. It can only be said that the process of the test and judgement is ambiguous, not the test itself, if the test itself is solvable. It can also be said that the test was not designed to serve its stated purpose, or was poorly designed for its purpose, and that it was not meant to be given in good faith, but none of these statements has bearing on the solvability of the test questions.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

analog31 2y ago

Ironically, if you don't have fair elections, then you don't have a republic.

UncleSlacky 2y ago
You do, just not a democratic one. "Republic" just means it's not a monarchy.
- analog31 2y ago
  Indeed, I was thinking of an elective republic, which is also how I think the founders conceived it. Example from Federalist 57: >>> The elective mode of obtaining rulers is the characteristic policy of republican government. We can debate how electors are chosen, but if the elected choose their own electors, then it's not a republic.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

Not to mention the very first part of that test says that anyone that can demonstrate a certain education level doesn't need to test it, meaning that any people disadvantaged by the system in not having a (demonstrable) education - which would be a lot of Black people - would have to take the test. I don't think anyone with that necessary education would pass the test.