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“Perfect pitch” or “perfect interval”? Someone with perfect pitch can tell what note you are playing just by listening to that note in isolation. Most people c

“Perfect pitch” or “perfect interval”? Someone with perfect pitch can tell what note you are playing just by listening to that note in isolation. Most people can’t do that. “Absolute pitch” is probably a better name, but it’s usually called “perfect pitch”. Perfect intervals are the intervals which don’t have a smaller and larger version of an interval with the same name. It’s nothing more than a naming convention for intervals. The 4th and 5th are perfect. So are the octave (8th) and unison (1). The other intervals (2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th), rather than being “perfect”, come in minor and major versions. Basically, every interval either has minor/major, or perfect. It’s a naming convention for intervals based on the western diatonic scale. Any interval which is smaller than minor/perfect is called “diminished”, and an interval which is larger than major/perfect is “augmented”. For example, C to Gb is a diminished fifth, and Ab to F# is an augmented sixth. Which number you use to name an interval is strictly based on the letter names of the note, ignoring sharps and flats.

brudgers 2y ago
I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. Temperaments are interesting because the pitches (and intervals) in 12TET are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Mean Tone are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Werckmeister -- and within Werckmeister because Werkmeister made several temperaments. Never mind 31TET etc.
- klodolph 2y ago
  > I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. I’m a little confused by what you are saying here, because most people who say “perfect pitch” mean that you can tell which note is being played in isolation. That’s what “perfect pitch” means to ordinary people, as far as I can tell. It’s something you have or don’t have. Like, “I have perfect pitch” or “I don’t have perfect pitch”. If you mean something other than that definition, maybe you could find some alternative way to express it because I don’t understand what meaning you are getting at. I’m not trying to be pedantic here, but “perfect pitch” is right there in the dictionary and it’s most commonly used to mean that you can recognize pitch without a reference, i.e., absolute pitch recognition.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    It seemed as if you wanted to call it absolute pitch and talk about intervals. The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. And "perfect" is a pretty strong word in a cannon of exaltent claims about Western classical music. That's what I find interesting. Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      Ok, you’re talking about perfect intervals, not perfect pitch. “Perfect pitch” doesn’t make sense in context and so I was having a hard time figuring out what you were getting at. This is not pedantry. I’m not trying to make a point here, I just didn’t understand what you meant. > The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. Yeah. So do all the other terms like minor, major, diminished, augmented, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, consonant, dissonant, etc. All of those terms gloss over the messy reality of temperaments. The tuning system (including temperaments) are, in fact, what establish the possible relationships between these interval names and the actual pitch ratios. For example, a just major third is 5:4, a pythagorean major third is 81:64, and an equal temperament major third is ∛2:1. > Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting. I’m happy to answer questions but I don’t like feeling like I’m being treated as an anthropological curiosity. If I’m providing more detail than you expect, then chalk it up to a property of Hacker News, which is full of pedants. Sometimes my comments here are damn verbose, just to get ahead of the pedants.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Perfect pitch exists completely outside the domain in which temperaments are applicable. Yes, sometimes we use letters to name notes, and the letters refer to a particular tuning system. But perfect pitch can be applied to any tone in any tuning system. If there's a way of naming the note, someone "with" perfect pitch could use that ability to name the note. If I invented an 18-tone-geometrically-fumigated scale based on octaves of the golden ratio, someone with perfect pitch could name all 18 of my new notes based on hearing them (after learning my new system). Perfect pitch has no relationship to western music, and certainly doesn't exalt it. It's can be used on any music with discernible pitches.
- recursive 2y ago
  In the common usage "perfect pitch" is a property of a person, not of a sound.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    I don't disagree. However, its cultural claims about the nature of music gives me the blues.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Perfect pitch doesn't say anything about the cultural understanding of music. Except possibly that pitch is important within the context of music? Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately. Nothing more. If you were a proponent of a style of music that didn't consider pitches to be significant, I can see why PP would be irrelevant. Beyond that, I don't understand what you're getting at.
      - klodolph 2y ago
        The commenter you’re replying to is using the term “perfect pitch” incorrectly, that’s all. They’re talking about the word “perfect” when it’s used to describe intervals, like perfect fifth or perfect fourth. I think.
      - brudgers 2y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pit... Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. Pitch is continuous and not discreet. There’s nothing wrong with tonal harmony as a system of making music. Its elevation to an ideology is anthropologically interesting…e.g. the “perfect” in “perfect pitch.”
        recursive 2y ago
        What? Perfect pitch exists outside of any tuning system. I know of concert pitch, but it's unrelated to perfect pitch. The "perfect" in perfect pitch refers to a person's ability to recognize pitches, and makes no value judgements on any systems of harmony. Perfect pitch is not even related to harmony at all, as it pertains to a single tone. Perfect pitch equally applies to all music that's based on pitches. It makes no value judgment about any particular practices, styles, traditions, genres, or tuning systems. > “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. What? A pitch can be measured as a frequency, which is a number. If someone can correctly identify the frequency accurately, they have perfect pitch. We can define "accurate" to be "within 1%", or whatever error tolerance you prefer. To which pseudo-science do you refer? Note names are used only as shorthand for referring to pitches, but "perfect pitch" doesn't require them. You can demonstrate perfect pitch without any note names or tuning system at all.

brudgers 2y ago

I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. Temperaments are interesting because the pitches (and intervals) in 12TET are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Mean Tone are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Werckmeister -- and within Werckmeister because Werkmeister made several temperaments. Never mind 31TET etc.

klodolph 2y ago
> I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. I’m a little confused by what you are saying here, because most people who say “perfect pitch” mean that you can tell which note is being played in isolation. That’s what “perfect pitch” means to ordinary people, as far as I can tell. It’s something you have or don’t have. Like, “I have perfect pitch” or “I don’t have perfect pitch”. If you mean something other than that definition, maybe you could find some alternative way to express it because I don’t understand what meaning you are getting at. I’m not trying to be pedantic here, but “perfect pitch” is right there in the dictionary and it’s most commonly used to mean that you can recognize pitch without a reference, i.e., absolute pitch recognition.
- brudgers 2y ago
  It seemed as if you wanted to call it absolute pitch and talk about intervals. The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. And "perfect" is a pretty strong word in a cannon of exaltent claims about Western classical music. That's what I find interesting. Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    Ok, you’re talking about perfect intervals, not perfect pitch. “Perfect pitch” doesn’t make sense in context and so I was having a hard time figuring out what you were getting at. This is not pedantry. I’m not trying to make a point here, I just didn’t understand what you meant. > The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. Yeah. So do all the other terms like minor, major, diminished, augmented, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, consonant, dissonant, etc. All of those terms gloss over the messy reality of temperaments. The tuning system (including temperaments) are, in fact, what establish the possible relationships between these interval names and the actual pitch ratios. For example, a just major third is 5:4, a pythagorean major third is 81:64, and an equal temperament major third is ∛2:1. > Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting. I’m happy to answer questions but I don’t like feeling like I’m being treated as an anthropological curiosity. If I’m providing more detail than you expect, then chalk it up to a property of Hacker News, which is full of pedants. Sometimes my comments here are damn verbose, just to get ahead of the pedants.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Perfect pitch exists completely outside the domain in which temperaments are applicable. Yes, sometimes we use letters to name notes, and the letters refer to a particular tuning system. But perfect pitch can be applied to any tone in any tuning system. If there's a way of naming the note, someone "with" perfect pitch could use that ability to name the note. If I invented an 18-tone-geometrically-fumigated scale based on octaves of the golden ratio, someone with perfect pitch could name all 18 of my new notes based on hearing them (after learning my new system). Perfect pitch has no relationship to western music, and certainly doesn't exalt it. It's can be used on any music with discernible pitches.
recursive 2y ago
In the common usage "perfect pitch" is a property of a person, not of a sound.
- brudgers 2y ago
  I don't disagree. However, its cultural claims about the nature of music gives me the blues.
  - recursive 2y ago
    Perfect pitch doesn't say anything about the cultural understanding of music. Except possibly that pitch is important within the context of music? Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately. Nothing more. If you were a proponent of a style of music that didn't consider pitches to be significant, I can see why PP would be irrelevant. Beyond that, I don't understand what you're getting at.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      The commenter you’re replying to is using the term “perfect pitch” incorrectly, that’s all. They’re talking about the word “perfect” when it’s used to describe intervals, like perfect fifth or perfect fourth. I think.
    - brudgers 2y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pit... Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. Pitch is continuous and not discreet. There’s nothing wrong with tonal harmony as a system of making music. Its elevation to an ideology is anthropologically interesting…e.g. the “perfect” in “perfect pitch.”
      - recursive 2y ago
        What? Perfect pitch exists outside of any tuning system. I know of concert pitch, but it's unrelated to perfect pitch. The "perfect" in perfect pitch refers to a person's ability to recognize pitches, and makes no value judgements on any systems of harmony. Perfect pitch is not even related to harmony at all, as it pertains to a single tone. Perfect pitch equally applies to all music that's based on pitches. It makes no value judgment about any particular practices, styles, traditions, genres, or tuning systems. > “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. What? A pitch can be measured as a frequency, which is a number. If someone can correctly identify the frequency accurately, they have perfect pitch. We can define "accurate" to be "within 1%", or whatever error tolerance you prefer. To which pseudo-science do you refer? Note names are used only as shorthand for referring to pitches, but "perfect pitch" doesn't require them. You can demonstrate perfect pitch without any note names or tuning system at all.