3 ms·

The manual for my Yamaha EW20 Windjamm’r is where I stumbled upon it. I find non-12TET temperaments anthropologically interesting in the context of European cla

The manual for my Yamaha EW20 Windjamm’r is where I stumbled upon it. I find non-12TET temperaments anthropologically interesting in the context of European classical music culture…e.g. what does the exalted status of “perfect pitch” imply?

klodolph 2y ago
“Perfect pitch” or “perfect interval”? Someone with perfect pitch can tell what note you are playing just by listening to that note in isolation. Most people can’t do that. “Absolute pitch” is probably a better name, but it’s usually called “perfect pitch”. Perfect intervals are the intervals which don’t have a smaller and larger version of an interval with the same name. It’s nothing more than a naming convention for intervals. The 4th and 5th are perfect. So are the octave (8th) and unison (1). The other intervals (2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th), rather than being “perfect”, come in minor and major versions. Basically, every interval either has minor/major, or perfect. It’s a naming convention for intervals based on the western diatonic scale. Any interval which is smaller than minor/perfect is called “diminished”, and an interval which is larger than major/perfect is “augmented”. For example, C to Gb is a diminished fifth, and Ab to F# is an augmented sixth. Which number you use to name an interval is strictly based on the letter names of the note, ignoring sharps and flats.
- brudgers 2y ago
  I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. Temperaments are interesting because the pitches (and intervals) in 12TET are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Mean Tone are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Werckmeister -- and within Werckmeister because Werkmeister made several temperaments. Never mind 31TET etc.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    > I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. I’m a little confused by what you are saying here, because most people who say “perfect pitch” mean that you can tell which note is being played in isolation. That’s what “perfect pitch” means to ordinary people, as far as I can tell. It’s something you have or don’t have. Like, “I have perfect pitch” or “I don’t have perfect pitch”. If you mean something other than that definition, maybe you could find some alternative way to express it because I don’t understand what meaning you are getting at. I’m not trying to be pedantic here, but “perfect pitch” is right there in the dictionary and it’s most commonly used to mean that you can recognize pitch without a reference, i.e., absolute pitch recognition.
    - brudgers 2y ago
      It seemed as if you wanted to call it absolute pitch and talk about intervals. The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. And "perfect" is a pretty strong word in a cannon of exaltent claims about Western classical music. That's what I find interesting. Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting.
      - klodolph 2y ago
        Ok, you’re talking about perfect intervals, not perfect pitch. “Perfect pitch” doesn’t make sense in context and so I was having a hard time figuring out what you were getting at. This is not pedantry. I’m not trying to make a point here, I just didn’t understand what you meant. > The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. Yeah. So do all the other terms like minor, major, diminished, augmented, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, consonant, dissonant, etc. All of those terms gloss over the messy reality of temperaments. The tuning system (including temperaments) are, in fact, what establish the possible relationships between these interval names and the actual pitch ratios. For example, a just major third is 5:4, a pythagorean major third is 81:64, and an equal temperament major third is ∛2:1. > Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting. I’m happy to answer questions but I don’t like feeling like I’m being treated as an anthropological curiosity. If I’m providing more detail than you expect, then chalk it up to a property of Hacker News, which is full of pedants. Sometimes my comments here are damn verbose, just to get ahead of the pedants.
      - recursive 2y ago
        Perfect pitch exists completely outside the domain in which temperaments are applicable. Yes, sometimes we use letters to name notes, and the letters refer to a particular tuning system. But perfect pitch can be applied to any tone in any tuning system. If there's a way of naming the note, someone "with" perfect pitch could use that ability to name the note. If I invented an 18-tone-geometrically-fumigated scale based on octaves of the golden ratio, someone with perfect pitch could name all 18 of my new notes based on hearing them (after learning my new system). Perfect pitch has no relationship to western music, and certainly doesn't exalt it. It's can be used on any music with discernible pitches.
  - recursive 2y ago
    In the common usage "perfect pitch" is a property of a person, not of a sound.
    - brudgers 2y ago
      I don't disagree. However, its cultural claims about the nature of music gives me the blues.
      - recursive 2y ago
        Perfect pitch doesn't say anything about the cultural understanding of music. Except possibly that pitch is important within the context of music? Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately. Nothing more. If you were a proponent of a style of music that didn't consider pitches to be significant, I can see why PP would be irrelevant. Beyond that, I don't understand what you're getting at.
        klodolph 2y ago
        The commenter you’re replying to is using the term “perfect pitch” incorrectly, that’s all. They’re talking about the word “perfect” when it’s used to describe intervals, like perfect fifth or perfect fourth. I think.
        brudgers 2y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pit... Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. Pitch is continuous and not discreet. There’s nothing wrong with tonal harmony as a system of making music. Its elevation to an ideology is anthropologically interesting…e.g. the “perfect” in “perfect pitch.”
        recursive 2y ago
        What? Perfect pitch exists outside of any tuning system. I know of concert pitch, but it's unrelated to perfect pitch. The "perfect" in perfect pitch refers to a person's ability to recognize pitches, and makes no value judgements on any systems of harmony. Perfect pitch is not even related to harmony at all, as it pertains to a single tone. Perfect pitch equally applies to all music that's based on pitches. It makes no value judgment about any particular practices, styles, traditions, genres, or tuning systems. > “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. What? A pitch can be measured as a frequency, which is a number. If someone can correctly identify the frequency accurately, they have perfect pitch. We can define "accurate" to be "within 1%", or whatever error tolerance you prefer. To which pseudo-science do you refer? Note names are used only as shorthand for referring to pitches, but "perfect pitch" doesn't require them. You can demonstrate perfect pitch without any note names or tuning system at all.
aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
It just means that melodies and harmonies are “supposed to be” sung and thus continuously pitched, where the ears of the musicians guide them to the proper harmonies. This is not feasible with keyboard or fretted instruments, so we have to make compromises if we want to play polytonal music on a single piano. 12-TET is a compromise that stood the test of time: ultimately a slightly “clangy” dominant seventh is preferable to the corrupt fifths and thirds you get with unequal temperaments. I really don’t think there’s much more to it than that, except composers with picky ears should just bite the bullet with 17-TET or something. (I am a guitarist and sometimes I wish I had flatter thirds and tritones without having to bend the strings.) As shown off-handedly in the Werckmeister Harmonies novel and film, composers who get too deep into the weeds of temperament systems often find themselves confusing form with function and waging ideological battles, forgetting that the point of the exercise is create interesting music.
- klodolph 2y ago
  Note that the technical term for this is “just”.
- analog31 2y ago
  Has anybody made a guitar with double frets? I once saw a viola da gamba performance, and the VdG had some double frets, so I asked about it. Their purpose is to allow for some options when playing those thirds and tritones. Since the frets are tied on, you can have as many as you want, and they're also movable, so you can play around with temperaments if you want.
  - klodolph 2y ago
    Does that work for just major thirds? They’re only 14 cents away from equal temperament, and I would think that the frets would be too close together, if you moved them into place for just major thirds.
    - analog31 2y ago
      Possibly. I didn't catch too many of the details, but he did demonstrate the sound and it was noticeable. The two frets were just a few mm apart, and a bass gamba has a fairly long scale length, comparable to a cello.

klodolph 2y ago

“Perfect pitch” or “perfect interval”? Someone with perfect pitch can tell what note you are playing just by listening to that note in isolation. Most people can’t do that. “Absolute pitch” is probably a better name, but it’s usually called “perfect pitch”. Perfect intervals are the intervals which don’t have a smaller and larger version of an interval with the same name. It’s nothing more than a naming convention for intervals. The 4th and 5th are perfect. So are the octave (8th) and unison (1). The other intervals (2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th), rather than being “perfect”, come in minor and major versions. Basically, every interval either has minor/major, or perfect. It’s a naming convention for intervals based on the western diatonic scale. Any interval which is smaller than minor/perfect is called “diminished”, and an interval which is larger than major/perfect is “augmented”. For example, C to Gb is a diminished fifth, and Ab to F# is an augmented sixth. Which number you use to name an interval is strictly based on the letter names of the note, ignoring sharps and flats.

brudgers 2y ago
I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. Temperaments are interesting because the pitches (and intervals) in 12TET are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Mean Tone are different from the pitches (and intervals) in Werckmeister -- and within Werckmeister because Werkmeister made several temperaments. Never mind 31TET etc.
- klodolph 2y ago
  > I used "perfect pitch" in the ordinary way ordinary people ordinarily use the phrase. I’m a little confused by what you are saying here, because most people who say “perfect pitch” mean that you can tell which note is being played in isolation. That’s what “perfect pitch” means to ordinary people, as far as I can tell. It’s something you have or don’t have. Like, “I have perfect pitch” or “I don’t have perfect pitch”. If you mean something other than that definition, maybe you could find some alternative way to express it because I don’t understand what meaning you are getting at. I’m not trying to be pedantic here, but “perfect pitch” is right there in the dictionary and it’s most commonly used to mean that you can recognize pitch without a reference, i.e., absolute pitch recognition.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    It seemed as if you wanted to call it absolute pitch and talk about intervals. The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. And "perfect" is a pretty strong word in a cannon of exaltent claims about Western classical music. That's what I find interesting. Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting.
    - klodolph 2y ago
      Ok, you’re talking about perfect intervals, not perfect pitch. “Perfect pitch” doesn’t make sense in context and so I was having a hard time figuring out what you were getting at. This is not pedantry. I’m not trying to make a point here, I just didn’t understand what you meant. > The "perfect" in "perfect pitch" glosses over the messy reality of temperaments. Yeah. So do all the other terms like minor, major, diminished, augmented, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, consonant, dissonant, etc. All of those terms gloss over the messy reality of temperaments. The tuning system (including temperaments) are, in fact, what establish the possible relationships between these interval names and the actual pitch ratios. For example, a just major third is 5:4, a pythagorean major third is 81:64, and an equal temperament major third is ∛2:1. > Or to explain further, providing a synopsis of tonal harmony in response to my comment is another of the sort of things I find anthropologically interesting. I’m happy to answer questions but I don’t like feeling like I’m being treated as an anthropological curiosity. If I’m providing more detail than you expect, then chalk it up to a property of Hacker News, which is full of pedants. Sometimes my comments here are damn verbose, just to get ahead of the pedants.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Perfect pitch exists completely outside the domain in which temperaments are applicable. Yes, sometimes we use letters to name notes, and the letters refer to a particular tuning system. But perfect pitch can be applied to any tone in any tuning system. If there's a way of naming the note, someone "with" perfect pitch could use that ability to name the note. If I invented an 18-tone-geometrically-fumigated scale based on octaves of the golden ratio, someone with perfect pitch could name all 18 of my new notes based on hearing them (after learning my new system). Perfect pitch has no relationship to western music, and certainly doesn't exalt it. It's can be used on any music with discernible pitches.
- recursive 2y ago
  In the common usage "perfect pitch" is a property of a person, not of a sound.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    I don't disagree. However, its cultural claims about the nature of music gives me the blues.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Perfect pitch doesn't say anything about the cultural understanding of music. Except possibly that pitch is important within the context of music? Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately. Nothing more. If you were a proponent of a style of music that didn't consider pitches to be significant, I can see why PP would be irrelevant. Beyond that, I don't understand what you're getting at.
      - klodolph 2y ago
        The commenter you’re replying to is using the term “perfect pitch” incorrectly, that’s all. They’re talking about the word “perfect” when it’s used to describe intervals, like perfect fifth or perfect fourth. I think.
      - brudgers 2y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pitch_standards_in_Western_music https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch#History_of_pit... Perfect pitch means that someone can identify pitches accurately “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. Pitch is continuous and not discreet. There’s nothing wrong with tonal harmony as a system of making music. Its elevation to an ideology is anthropologically interesting…e.g. the “perfect” in “perfect pitch.”
        recursive 2y ago
        What? Perfect pitch exists outside of any tuning system. I know of concert pitch, but it's unrelated to perfect pitch. The "perfect" in perfect pitch refers to a person's ability to recognize pitches, and makes no value judgements on any systems of harmony. Perfect pitch is not even related to harmony at all, as it pertains to a single tone. Perfect pitch equally applies to all music that's based on pitches. It makes no value judgment about any particular practices, styles, traditions, genres, or tuning systems. > “Accurately” is doing some psuedo-scientific hand waving. That hand waving what I find interesting. What? A pitch can be measured as a frequency, which is a number. If someone can correctly identify the frequency accurately, they have perfect pitch. We can define "accurate" to be "within 1%", or whatever error tolerance you prefer. To which pseudo-science do you refer? Note names are used only as shorthand for referring to pitches, but "perfect pitch" doesn't require them. You can demonstrate perfect pitch without any note names or tuning system at all.

aithrowawaycomm 2y ago

It just means that melodies and harmonies are “supposed to be” sung and thus continuously pitched, where the ears of the musicians guide them to the proper harmonies. This is not feasible with keyboard or fretted instruments, so we have to make compromises if we want to play polytonal music on a single piano. 12-TET is a compromise that stood the test of time: ultimately a slightly “clangy” dominant seventh is preferable to the corrupt fifths and thirds you get with unequal temperaments. I really don’t think there’s much more to it than that, except composers with picky ears should just bite the bullet with 17-TET or something. (I am a guitarist and sometimes I wish I had flatter thirds and tritones without having to bend the strings.) As shown off-handedly in the Werckmeister Harmonies novel and film, composers who get too deep into the weeds of temperament systems often find themselves confusing form with function and waging ideological battles, forgetting that the point of the exercise is create interesting music.

klodolph 2y ago
Note that the technical term for this is “just”.
analog31 2y ago
Has anybody made a guitar with double frets? I once saw a viola da gamba performance, and the VdG had some double frets, so I asked about it. Their purpose is to allow for some options when playing those thirds and tritones. Since the frets are tied on, you can have as many as you want, and they're also movable, so you can play around with temperaments if you want.
- klodolph 2y ago
  Does that work for just major thirds? They’re only 14 cents away from equal temperament, and I would think that the frets would be too close together, if you moved them into place for just major thirds.
  - analog31 2y ago
    Possibly. I didn't catch too many of the details, but he did demonstrate the sound and it was noticeable. The two frets were just a few mm apart, and a bass gamba has a fairly long scale length, comparable to a cello.