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India's airline industry in chaos after 90 hoax bomb threats in a week

xvector 2y ago
They need way harsher penalties than simply putting people on a no-fly list. Also how do you not catch 90 people using social media to make threats?
- asadm 2y ago
  I assume US social networks not co-operating much?
  - porridgeraisin 2y ago
    Yes, this.
  - ridiculous_leke 2y ago
    Makes sense. A three letter US agency can very well identify the people making these calls when they can spy on Indian diplomats. I hope a request through Interpol is made.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    My guess is our government isn’t cooperating. I’m sure they can figure out who’s doing this but have been dragging their feet and antagonizing India instead. Not the smartest way to build a partnership to contain China geopolitically or economically.
- bawolff 2y ago
  Isn't that already a go-to-jail offence?
BeetleB 2y ago
Funny - I always wanted to visit Iqualit. Although probably not in cold weather...
geodel 2y ago
Huh, considering the thorough checking that CRPF guy did for my backpack to finally take out a plumber's tape and throwaway. Is government/ airlines security not confident about their security procedures. edit: CRPF -> CISF Thanks to @db1234 for pointing it out.
- mplewis 2y ago
  In the USA, the TSA fails to detect threats 95% of the time. "Not confident" is an understatement: we know that these procedures do not work.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Note in terms of sources for this number, lots of articles around 2015 discussing the 95% failure rate. This article is from 2 years later, 2017, and the failure rate was still abysmal: https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-operation-us-airports/story?id=51022188 https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-...
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    This is the stupidest thing about the TSA though: On one hand, it's security theater. A real threat does not find it intimidating. However, if someone were to abolish the TSA for being security theater, do you have confidence that people wouldn't immediately start bringing knives? It's security theater that simultaneously fulfills a deterrence purpose; and any politician that dares get rid of it, will be blamed for anything and everything thereafter.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      (Separate comment, due to being controversial) I think the moral of the above story, although we are loath to admit it because it's so stupid, is that cheap theatrical security measures actually work surprisingly well. Whether it be $5 Master Locks, the deadbolt on your door, easily guessed passwords, or even DRM. No strength against a determined attacker, but they do mostly "work." Even a stupid password like "p@ssw0rd" prevents 98%+ of attacks compared to just a hypothetical password-free "Log in as Jake" button. If it stops 98% of casual attacks, it can be simultaneously stupid and yet valuable.
camillomiller 2y ago
Are the airline stocks losing value? Could be a scheme to profit with pur options
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
Terrorism for the price of a phone call. For a public official, this is a severe lose-lose kind of situation. Ground flights, people hate you. Let the planes fly and a real explosive materializes, lose your job/jailed for negligence.
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  Yeah, I've always looked at the extreme reaction authorities have to threats of violence as a pretty significant DOS risk. I'm surprised this isn't more common.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    Are the reactions extreme? You're effectively weighing convenience against fatalities. It would seem to me that the reaction is rather reasonable. Neither judgement changes the fact that the reaction itself definitely makes DOS possible, of course. I imagine the reason it isn't more common is that the punishment for making terroristic threats tends to be quite high (especially against airports), so you need to be very certain you won't get caught doing it.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      Bomb threat reactions are normally justified, but swatting reactions (and police reactions in general) are still too violent and ineffective. Not to mention that technology is making spoofing of threats easier and easier.
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        Do you have a source for that, or is this opinion? I’m also not so worried about SWATting being possible - I want a ratio of times where the extreme response was warranted versus unwarranted.
        curmudgeon22 2y ago
ivewonyoung 2y ago
Meanwhile, a terrorist on US soil has openly threatened [1] to blow up Air India flights again [1] with specific dates. That doesn't qualify under free speech protections, does it? He's a US and Canadian dual citizen, the US government has been trying to protect him by giving him intelligence about threats against him, in Canada the CBC has been interviewing him and he said he's in regular touch with Trudeau. Very strange just like the 1984 bombing of Air India that took off from Canada by the same Khalistan terrorists, killing 350 people of Indian origin including about 80 children. The investigation in Canada was completely botched and let the terrorists go free. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/khalistani-terrorist-gurpatwant-singh-pannun-issues-threat-against-air-india-flights-here-s-what-passengers-need-to-know/ar-AA1sEPDg https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/khalistani-terrorist-gu... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hk_L3rqYCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hk_L3rqYCw
- chasil 2y ago
  The current test for freedom of speech in the U.S. is "Imminent Lawless Action," which is a refinement of the previous "Clear and Present Danger" standard. The threats do not qualify under the current test. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- somedude871 2y ago
  [dead]
- satnam14 2y ago
  This is fake news with fake videos in the linked articles. This person has not threatened anyone. Instead he's been a vocal figure about the political crimes committed against a minority by the Indian government. The Indian government tried to assassinate him but got caught red handed. And now their media is trying to convince everyone that this guy is a terrorist. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/22/india-us-sikh-assassination/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/22/...
causi 2y ago
I don't understand why authorities even respond to bomb threats at all. If your security procedures are sufficient to keep people from bombing planes, bomb threats are irrelevant. If someone intends to bomb a plane, they don't announce it, making bomb threats doubly irrelevant. An institution getting a bomb threat is about as consequential as someone threatening to kill you in a Youtube comment.
- scotty79 2y ago
  It's an opportunity to flex. Public wants it, public loves it.
- burnished 2y ago
  Citations needed, specifically the claim that bombers act exclusively or primarily in silence.
  - causi 2y ago
    I couldn't find any examples of airline bombings that were preceded by threats.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      Famously: D. B. Cooper, also known as Dan Cooper, was an unidentified man who hijacked Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305, a Boeing 727 aircraft, in United States airspace on November 24, 1971. During the flight from Portland, Oregon, to Seattle, Washington, Cooper told a flight attendant he had a bomb, demanded $200,000 in ransom (equivalent to approximately $1,500,000 in 2024) and four parachutes upon landing in Seattle. Cooper showed a device which by all appearances may have been a bomb, though its ultimate capabilities were never conclusively determined: [Cooper] opened his briefcase, and she saw two rows of four red cylinders, which she assumed were dynamite. Attached to the cylinders were a wire and a large, cylindrical battery, which resembled a bomb. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper> Regardless, there was an actual terrorist threat and hijacking, so the threat itself wasn't merely "phoned in". The incident inspired numerous copycats: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper_copycat_hijackings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper_copycat_hijacking...> There's a longer list of aircraft-involved terrorism incidents which might yield other forewarning instances: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_incidents_involving_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_incidents_inv...>
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
The airlines have to follow a protocol to report threats to the ground, even if they’re likely fake. That’s why there are repeated incidents of fighter jets being scrambled to accompany the affected plane until they’re given clearance to land. It is disruptive, expensive, and clearly terroristic. The governments involved (primarily Canada, but also the US and India) need to restore rule of law and crack down on this. I think I recall reading that these hoax threats are being done by supporters of a fringe Sikh separatist movement that aims to break up India, so they can form a Sikh religious ethnostate they call Khalistan. As I recall this group assassinated the prime minister of India at one point. But after that they also blew up an Air India flight with hundreds of Canadians and others on board (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182). When India cracked down on the terrorists, many fled to Canada, and so there are many supporters of that movement there (if you’re in BC you know). Unfortunately Canada has done little to crack down on this movement even though they have a record of terrorism and pose a threat to a key trade partner and important ally in the Asian Pacific region. I’m also not sure governments can fully stop anonymous online threats or coordination. Look at other disruptions like BLM groups blocking highways, or Palestine groups blocking airports, or whatever. These types of events are difficult to stop ahead of time.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Both Canada and the US have freedom of expression and freedom of association -- it would be both illegal and immoral for them to support India's extrajudicial, extraterratorial executions of people of Sikh faith who seek a homeland free of India's Hindu religious ethnostate. At the moment, it seems India is refusing to cooperate with Canada's probe of terroristic assassination plots apparently orchestrated by the Indian government, instead sequestering the suspects back in India and attacking Canada with righteous indignation for bringing it up. Respect for the rule of law, IMO, would mean giving information to the Canadian government as requested, and making the assassination plot suspects available for interview and possible prosecution.
TheRealDunkirk 2y ago
TFA says that the motive is unclear, but that's not particularly true, is it? I mean, there are several, very predictable results from this, among which surely must be the objective(s). This leaves a pretty narrow trail to follow for whatever intelligence services must be looking at it now. Not knowing the lay of the land over there, I can't even guess, but someone here must be able to intuit what's going on.
lilharddad 2y ago
[dead]
magicalhippo 2y ago
I was at a major airport going home, and it was absolute chaos. Turned out they had received a bomb threat, and so security was super stringent. Well, I've never been so scared before. The massive security queue meant the entry hall was packed with people, and anyone could walk into there straight from the parking lot with 5-6 huge, heavy suitcases on a trolley without raising any suspicion.
- klabb3 2y ago
  Good example of how security is counterintuitive. Another one from real life is how bank robbers often create misleading or blocking maneuvers such as setting a truck on fire, blocking road access to helicopter pads etc. But the epitome of “security paranoia paradox” must surely be military dictatorships, where powers you create to protect you can eventually overpower you. As a tangent, it feels like there are close analogies to computer security for these cases.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    You got any news reports on those bank robberies, they sound pretty wild!
    - magicalhippo 2y ago
      In the most famous robbery[1] here in Norway they did exactly that, had a truck block the ramp of the city's primary police station parking lot, located in the basement of the station, and then set it on fire. They also threw tear gas canisters at the main entrance. This significantly hampered the police response to the robbery. They made a film about the robbery[2], which was quite well received. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOKAS_robbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOKAS_robbery [2]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1337366/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1337366/
- ozfive 2y ago
  When I was in Bangalore in 2018 they wouldn't even allow anyone into the entry hall without a boarding pass and passport. Security was more tight back then compared to how you describe it now.
ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
Sikh retribution? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/19/india-sikh-activists-violence https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/19/india-sikh-act...
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  There's some prior history, see India Air Flight 182 (1985 bombing, 329 fatalities, Canada's largest mass terrorism event): <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182>
Gud 2y ago
I flew to Delhi on the 17th of October from Paris. Naturally, the airline forgot my luggage. They said don't worry, we'll send it on the next flight. Still haven't received it(I'm in Bangalore now) due to flight cancellations. At least I'm getting a lot of new clothes at the airlines expense. Also, if you are planning a trip to India, make sure you have room in your luggage for clothing. You get some good quality stuff here for a quarter(or less) of the price you pay in Europe.

They need way harsher penalties than simply putting people on a no-fly list. Also how do you not catch 90 people using social media to make threats?

asadm 2y ago
I assume US social networks not co-operating much?
- porridgeraisin 2y ago
  Yes, this.
- ridiculous_leke 2y ago
  Makes sense. A three letter US agency can very well identify the people making these calls when they can spy on Indian diplomats. I hope a request through Interpol is made.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  My guess is our government isn’t cooperating. I’m sure they can figure out who’s doing this but have been dragging their feet and antagonizing India instead. Not the smartest way to build a partnership to contain China geopolitically or economically.
bawolff 2y ago
Isn't that already a go-to-jail offence?

BeetleB 2y ago

Funny - I always wanted to visit Iqualit. Although probably not in cold weather...

geodel 2y ago

Huh, considering the thorough checking that CRPF guy did for my backpack to finally take out a plumber's tape and throwaway. Is government/ airlines security not confident about their security procedures. edit: CRPF -> CISF Thanks to @db1234 for pointing it out.

mplewis 2y ago
In the USA, the TSA fails to detect threats 95% of the time. "Not confident" is an understatement: we know that these procedures do not work.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Note in terms of sources for this number, lots of articles around 2015 discussing the 95% failure rate. This article is from 2 years later, 2017, and the failure rate was still abysmal: https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-operation-us-airports/story?id=51022188 https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover-...
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  This is the stupidest thing about the TSA though: On one hand, it's security theater. A real threat does not find it intimidating. However, if someone were to abolish the TSA for being security theater, do you have confidence that people wouldn't immediately start bringing knives? It's security theater that simultaneously fulfills a deterrence purpose; and any politician that dares get rid of it, will be blamed for anything and everything thereafter.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    (Separate comment, due to being controversial) I think the moral of the above story, although we are loath to admit it because it's so stupid, is that cheap theatrical security measures actually work surprisingly well. Whether it be $5 Master Locks, the deadbolt on your door, easily guessed passwords, or even DRM. No strength against a determined attacker, but they do mostly "work." Even a stupid password like "p@ssw0rd" prevents 98%+ of attacks compared to just a hypothetical password-free "Log in as Jake" button. If it stops 98% of casual attacks, it can be simultaneously stupid and yet valuable.

camillomiller 2y ago

Are the airline stocks losing value? Could be a scheme to profit with pur options

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago

Terrorism for the price of a phone call. For a public official, this is a severe lose-lose kind of situation. Ground flights, people hate you. Let the planes fly and a real explosive materializes, lose your job/jailed for negligence.

Ajedi32 2y ago
Yeah, I've always looked at the extreme reaction authorities have to threats of violence as a pretty significant DOS risk. I'm surprised this isn't more common.
- zdragnar 2y ago
  Are the reactions extreme? You're effectively weighing convenience against fatalities. It would seem to me that the reaction is rather reasonable. Neither judgement changes the fact that the reaction itself definitely makes DOS possible, of course. I imagine the reason it isn't more common is that the punishment for making terroristic threats tends to be quite high (especially against airports), so you need to be very certain you won't get caught doing it.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Bomb threat reactions are normally justified, but swatting reactions (and police reactions in general) are still too violent and ineffective. Not to mention that technology is making spoofing of threats easier and easier.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Do you have a source for that, or is this opinion? I’m also not so worried about SWATting being possible - I want a ratio of times where the extreme response was warranted versus unwarranted.
      - curmudgeon22 2y ago

ivewonyoung 2y ago

Meanwhile, a terrorist on US soil has openly threatened [1] to blow up Air India flights again [1] with specific dates. That doesn't qualify under free speech protections, does it? He's a US and Canadian dual citizen, the US government has been trying to protect him by giving him intelligence about threats against him, in Canada the CBC has been interviewing him and he said he's in regular touch with Trudeau. Very strange just like the 1984 bombing of Air India that took off from Canada by the same Khalistan terrorists, killing 350 people of Indian origin including about 80 children. The investigation in Canada was completely botched and let the terrorists go free. [1] https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/khalistani-terrorist-gurpatwant-singh-pannun-issues-threat-against-air-india-flights-here-s-what-passengers-need-to-know/ar-AA1sEPDg https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/khalistani-terrorist-gu... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hk_L3rqYCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hk_L3rqYCw

chasil 2y ago
The current test for freedom of speech in the U.S. is "Imminent Lawless Action," which is a refinement of the previous "Clear and Present Danger" standard. The threats do not qualify under the current test. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
somedude871 2y ago
[dead]
satnam14 2y ago
This is fake news with fake videos in the linked articles. This person has not threatened anyone. Instead he's been a vocal figure about the political crimes committed against a minority by the Indian government. The Indian government tried to assassinate him but got caught red handed. And now their media is trying to convince everyone that this guy is a terrorist. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/22/india-us-sikh-assassination/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/22/...

causi 2y ago

I don't understand why authorities even respond to bomb threats at all. If your security procedures are sufficient to keep people from bombing planes, bomb threats are irrelevant. If someone intends to bomb a plane, they don't announce it, making bomb threats doubly irrelevant. An institution getting a bomb threat is about as consequential as someone threatening to kill you in a Youtube comment.

scotty79 2y ago
It's an opportunity to flex. Public wants it, public loves it.
burnished 2y ago
Citations needed, specifically the claim that bombers act exclusively or primarily in silence.
- causi 2y ago
  I couldn't find any examples of airline bombings that were preceded by threats.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Famously: D. B. Cooper, also known as Dan Cooper, was an unidentified man who hijacked Northwest Orient Airlines Flight 305, a Boeing 727 aircraft, in United States airspace on November 24, 1971. During the flight from Portland, Oregon, to Seattle, Washington, Cooper told a flight attendant he had a bomb, demanded $200,000 in ransom (equivalent to approximately $1,500,000 in 2024) and four parachutes upon landing in Seattle. Cooper showed a device which by all appearances may have been a bomb, though its ultimate capabilities were never conclusively determined: [Cooper] opened his briefcase, and she saw two rows of four red cylinders, which she assumed were dynamite. Attached to the cylinders were a wire and a large, cylindrical battery, which resembled a bomb. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper> Regardless, there was an actual terrorist threat and hijacking, so the threat itself wasn't merely "phoned in". The incident inspired numerous copycats: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper_copycat_hijackings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper_copycat_hijacking...> There's a longer list of aircraft-involved terrorism incidents which might yield other forewarning instances: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_incidents_involving_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_incidents_inv...>

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

The airlines have to follow a protocol to report threats to the ground, even if they’re likely fake. That’s why there are repeated incidents of fighter jets being scrambled to accompany the affected plane until they’re given clearance to land. It is disruptive, expensive, and clearly terroristic. The governments involved (primarily Canada, but also the US and India) need to restore rule of law and crack down on this. I think I recall reading that these hoax threats are being done by supporters of a fringe Sikh separatist movement that aims to break up India, so they can form a Sikh religious ethnostate they call Khalistan. As I recall this group assassinated the prime minister of India at one point. But after that they also blew up an Air India flight with hundreds of Canadians and others on board (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182). When India cracked down on the terrorists, many fled to Canada, and so there are many supporters of that movement there (if you’re in BC you know). Unfortunately Canada has done little to crack down on this movement even though they have a record of terrorism and pose a threat to a key trade partner and important ally in the Asian Pacific region. I’m also not sure governments can fully stop anonymous online threats or coordination. Look at other disruptions like BLM groups blocking highways, or Palestine groups blocking airports, or whatever. These types of events are difficult to stop ahead of time.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
Both Canada and the US have freedom of expression and freedom of association -- it would be both illegal and immoral for them to support India's extrajudicial, extraterratorial executions of people of Sikh faith who seek a homeland free of India's Hindu religious ethnostate. At the moment, it seems India is refusing to cooperate with Canada's probe of terroristic assassination plots apparently orchestrated by the Indian government, instead sequestering the suspects back in India and attacking Canada with righteous indignation for bringing it up. Respect for the rule of law, IMO, would mean giving information to the Canadian government as requested, and making the assassination plot suspects available for interview and possible prosecution.

TheRealDunkirk 2y ago

TFA says that the motive is unclear, but that's not particularly true, is it? I mean, there are several, very predictable results from this, among which surely must be the objective(s). This leaves a pretty narrow trail to follow for whatever intelligence services must be looking at it now. Not knowing the lay of the land over there, I can't even guess, but someone here must be able to intuit what's going on.

lilharddad 2y ago

[dead]

magicalhippo 2y ago

I was at a major airport going home, and it was absolute chaos. Turned out they had received a bomb threat, and so security was super stringent. Well, I've never been so scared before. The massive security queue meant the entry hall was packed with people, and anyone could walk into there straight from the parking lot with 5-6 huge, heavy suitcases on a trolley without raising any suspicion.

klabb3 2y ago
Good example of how security is counterintuitive. Another one from real life is how bank robbers often create misleading or blocking maneuvers such as setting a truck on fire, blocking road access to helicopter pads etc. But the epitome of “security paranoia paradox” must surely be military dictatorships, where powers you create to protect you can eventually overpower you. As a tangent, it feels like there are close analogies to computer security for these cases.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  You got any news reports on those bank robberies, they sound pretty wild!
  - magicalhippo 2y ago
    In the most famous robbery[1] here in Norway they did exactly that, had a truck block the ramp of the city's primary police station parking lot, located in the basement of the station, and then set it on fire. They also threw tear gas canisters at the main entrance. This significantly hampered the police response to the robbery. They made a film about the robbery[2], which was quite well received. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOKAS_robbery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOKAS_robbery [2]: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1337366/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1337366/
ozfive 2y ago
When I was in Bangalore in 2018 they wouldn't even allow anyone into the entry hall without a boarding pass and passport. Security was more tight back then compared to how you describe it now.

ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago

Sikh retribution? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/19/india-sikh-activists-violence https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/19/india-sikh-act...

dredmorbius 2y ago
There's some prior history, see India Air Flight 182 (1985 bombing, 329 fatalities, Canada's largest mass terrorism event): <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182>

Gud 2y ago

I flew to Delhi on the 17th of October from Paris. Naturally, the airline forgot my luggage. They said don't worry, we'll send it on the next flight. Still haven't received it(I'm in Bangalore now) due to flight cancellations. At least I'm getting a lot of new clothes at the airlines expense. Also, if you are planning a trip to India, make sure you have room in your luggage for clothing. You get some good quality stuff here for a quarter(or less) of the price you pay in Europe.