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> That seems like stolen valor to me, I didn't get an engineering degree and I don't think of programming as an engineering discipline. I don't think of softwa

> That seems like stolen valor to me, I didn't get an engineering degree and I don't think of programming as an engineering discipline. I don't think of software as solely an engineering discipline either, but domains within it are certainly "engineering"-ish. I work all day with "proper" engineers doing an essentially similar job. If we call it something else, that implies the terms aren't identical. If they're not identical, what semantic differences are being conveyed, since both sets of titles refer to jobs sharing the same ultimate responsibilities for the results? When does this become a stolen valor situation?

gregjor 2y ago
Engineers get degrees in engineering, have to pass tests to work in their field, and get required ongoing education to stay current. Not every engineer but in general the title "engineer" connotes a minimum amount of education, credentials, exams, etc. that don't exist in the programming world. I think of engineering disciplines as fields that have documented knowledge and processes that lead to predictable and repeatable results. In my experience programming defies accurate (or even useful) prediction, and we fail to replicate success reliably. I agree that programming has some engineering-ish aspects, some things we understand better than others, but we mostly fall down as a field producing predictable software. I think those "failures" come from the nature of programming as an idiosyncratic craft, a field too big with too many specializations to master in a lifetime, and a constantly-changing landscape of hardware, languages, tools, frameworks, and so on. And programmers very often work with vague, incomplete, and shifting requirements -- something engineers have better processes for. A bridge or a building or a road gets planned out to a level of detail that similarly large software projects do not. If a programmer wants to call themselves an engineer, I don't mind, and I understand how that means something different than electrical engineer or civil engineer. I have always found "programmer" sufficient to describe what I do.
- tjr 2y ago
  Having worked in aerospace software for decades, I believe that software engineering exists. I also realize most software projects don't have (or need) that level of planning or rigor.
timeon 2y ago
Job of engineer is done in context of legal norms and regulations. This is not the case of most software 'engineers'. Another similar topic could be architects vs software 'architects'.

gregjor 2y ago

Engineers get degrees in engineering, have to pass tests to work in their field, and get required ongoing education to stay current. Not every engineer but in general the title "engineer" connotes a minimum amount of education, credentials, exams, etc. that don't exist in the programming world. I think of engineering disciplines as fields that have documented knowledge and processes that lead to predictable and repeatable results. In my experience programming defies accurate (or even useful) prediction, and we fail to replicate success reliably. I agree that programming has some engineering-ish aspects, some things we understand better than others, but we mostly fall down as a field producing predictable software. I think those "failures" come from the nature of programming as an idiosyncratic craft, a field too big with too many specializations to master in a lifetime, and a constantly-changing landscape of hardware, languages, tools, frameworks, and so on. And programmers very often work with vague, incomplete, and shifting requirements -- something engineers have better processes for. A bridge or a building or a road gets planned out to a level of detail that similarly large software projects do not. If a programmer wants to call themselves an engineer, I don't mind, and I understand how that means something different than electrical engineer or civil engineer. I have always found "programmer" sufficient to describe what I do.

tjr 2y ago
Having worked in aerospace software for decades, I believe that software engineering exists. I also realize most software projects don't have (or need) that level of planning or rigor.

timeon 2y ago

Job of engineer is done in context of legal norms and regulations. This is not the case of most software 'engineers'. Another similar topic could be architects vs software 'architects'.