5 ms·

I think, yes and no. Yes, there is no formal standard or certification, and that opens the door for charlatans and sloppy crap. No, designing and implementing

I think, yes and no. Yes, there is no formal standard or certification, and that opens the door for charlatans and sloppy crap. No, designing and implementing software systems well requires planning, fail safes, redundancy and all kind of things "physical" engineers deal with. It may be time to certify to differentiate between script kiddies and the folks managing the software systems that back our modern world.

tracerbulletx 2y ago
A lot of the software that built this modern world was created by people who would be disgusted by this credentialist crap.
- sojournerc 2y ago
  I get it, this is hacker news after all, but it really could be worthwhile for the profession to differentiate between someone who picked up Python for a weekend project, and someone with 30 years experience with real-world systems. Would you get surgery from someone in a back alley? Is that credentialist crap?
  - shermantanktop 2y ago
    The first surgeon had no credentials and no “relevant experience.” And that surgeon probably didn’t do a great job at first. This industry is still within memory of the first digital computers. Now we have lots of rote work, some interesting and novel areas, and a small sliver of wacky innovation. But I think many here cherish that self-image of the self-taught inventor… this is “hacker” news after all. I for one am not ready to give someone undue credibility because of a title or piece of paper.
  - pedrosorio 2y ago
    > differentiate between someone who picked up Python for a weekend project, and someone with 30 years experience with real-world systems Why do you need credentials to differentiate these two?
- Barrin92 2y ago
  Because unlike in most actual engineering disciplines software developers generally aren't held particularly liable for the failures that their bad engineering causes, whereas people who build faulty bridges or airplanes don't have that luxury. Software has built a lot of modern toys but it still plays a relatively limited role in the world of atoms rather than bits, but I suspect the value of credentials is going to appreciate as that changes over the next few decades.
  - tracerbulletx 2y ago
    I'd say software is deeply integrated with all forms of engineering at this point because of modeling.
AlotOfReading 2y ago
What would you consider a good set of formal qualifications? Degrees that the people who wrote software you regard well probably didn't have, and people writing software you dislike do? Quickly outdated written tests? Years of experience when a common refrain is 1 year of experience x times? I work with safety critical systems. I still haven't found a better way to evaluate people than having a conversation because none of the overt metrics have correlated well with my "won't get people killed" rating.
- sojournerc 2y ago
  Good question. I think a big part of physical engineers' credential comes down to liability, which ultimately leads to civil engineering firms hiring contientious and responsible engineers. It's a internal feedback loop that the software industry tends to lack. I'm not advocating for senseless beaurocratic hurdles, but you have to admit that standards for software have fallen as more people have entered the industry.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    I don't agree that modern developers are less capable. If I had to choose between software developed to the best practices in 1995 and the same software developed to modern best practices, I'd pick the modern software in a heartbeat. What's changed is our relationship with software. Old school software did fewer, simpler things. The tools available limited what could even be realized and expectations for the end result were fundamentally different than we have today because they had to be.

tracerbulletx 2y ago

A lot of the software that built this modern world was created by people who would be disgusted by this credentialist crap.

sojournerc 2y ago
I get it, this is hacker news after all, but it really could be worthwhile for the profession to differentiate between someone who picked up Python for a weekend project, and someone with 30 years experience with real-world systems. Would you get surgery from someone in a back alley? Is that credentialist crap?
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  The first surgeon had no credentials and no “relevant experience.” And that surgeon probably didn’t do a great job at first. This industry is still within memory of the first digital computers. Now we have lots of rote work, some interesting and novel areas, and a small sliver of wacky innovation. But I think many here cherish that self-image of the self-taught inventor… this is “hacker” news after all. I for one am not ready to give someone undue credibility because of a title or piece of paper.
- pedrosorio 2y ago
  > differentiate between someone who picked up Python for a weekend project, and someone with 30 years experience with real-world systems Why do you need credentials to differentiate these two?
Barrin92 2y ago
Because unlike in most actual engineering disciplines software developers generally aren't held particularly liable for the failures that their bad engineering causes, whereas people who build faulty bridges or airplanes don't have that luxury. Software has built a lot of modern toys but it still plays a relatively limited role in the world of atoms rather than bits, but I suspect the value of credentials is going to appreciate as that changes over the next few decades.
- tracerbulletx 2y ago
  I'd say software is deeply integrated with all forms of engineering at this point because of modeling.

AlotOfReading 2y ago

What would you consider a good set of formal qualifications? Degrees that the people who wrote software you regard well probably didn't have, and people writing software you dislike do? Quickly outdated written tests? Years of experience when a common refrain is 1 year of experience x times? I work with safety critical systems. I still haven't found a better way to evaluate people than having a conversation because none of the overt metrics have correlated well with my "won't get people killed" rating.

sojournerc 2y ago
Good question. I think a big part of physical engineers' credential comes down to liability, which ultimately leads to civil engineering firms hiring contientious and responsible engineers. It's a internal feedback loop that the software industry tends to lack. I'm not advocating for senseless beaurocratic hurdles, but you have to admit that standards for software have fallen as more people have entered the industry.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  I don't agree that modern developers are less capable. If I had to choose between software developed to the best practices in 1995 and the same software developed to modern best practices, I'd pick the modern software in a heartbeat. What's changed is our relationship with software. Old school software did fewer, simpler things. The tools available limited what could even be realized and expectations for the end result were fundamentally different than we have today because they had to be.