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Ok. But what is the case law in hosting illegal content? Sure you may operate a torrent, but if your client is distributing child porn, in my view, you bear res

Ok. But what is the case law in hosting illegal content? Sure you may operate a torrent, but if your client is distributing child porn, in my view, you bear responsibility.

ranger_danger 2y ago
I don't think TPB ever hosted any copyrighted content, even indirectly by its users. Torrent peers do not ever send any file contents through the tracker.
defrost 2y ago
I'm backing ranger_danger here. In Law the technicalities matter. Trackers generally do not host any content, just hashcodes and (sometimes) meta data descriptions of content. If "your" (ie let's say _you_ TZubiri) client is distributing child pornography content because you have a partially downloaded CP file then that's on _you_ and not on the tracker. The "tracker" has unique hashcode signatures of tens of millions of torrents - it literaly just puts clients (such as the one that you might be running yourself on your machine in the example above) in touch with other clients who are "just asking" about the same unique hashcode signature. Some tracker affiliated websites (eg: TPB) might host searchable indexes of metadata associated with specific torrents (and still not host the torrents themselves) but "pure" trackers can literally operate with zero knowledge of any content - just arrange handshakes between clients looking for matching hashes - whether that's UbuntuLatest or DonkeyNotKong
- TZubiri 2y ago
  We agree in that if my client distributes illegal content, I am responsible, at least in part. On the other hand I also believe that a tracker that hosts hashes of illegal content, provides search facilities for and facilitates their download, is responsible, in a big way. That's my personal opinion and I think it's backed in cases like the pirate bay and sci hub. That 0 knowledge tracker is interesting, my first reaction is that it's going to end up in very nasty places like Tor, onion, etc..
  - defrost 2y ago
    > That 0 knowledge tracker is interesting, Most actual trackers are zero knowledge. A tracker (bit of central software that handles 100+ thousand connections/second) is not a "torrent site" such as TPB, EZTV, etc. A tracker handshakes torrent clients and introduces peers to each other, it has no idea nor needs an idea that "SomeName 1080p DSPN" maps to D23F5C5AAE3D5C361476108C97557F200327718A All it needs is to store IP addresses that are interested in that hash and to pass handfuls of interested IP addresses to other interested parties (and some other bookkeeping). From an actual tracker PoV the content is irrelevant and there's no means of telling one thing from another other than size - it's how trackers have operated for 20+ years now. Here are some actual tracker addresses and ports udp://tracker.opentrackr.org:1337/announce udp://p4p.arenabg.com:1337/announce udp://tracker.torrent.eu.org:451/announce udp://tracker.dler.org:6969/announce udp://open.stealth.si:80/announce udp://ipv4.tracker.harry.lu:80/announce https://opentracker.i2p.rocks:443/announce Here's the bittorrent protocol: http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0052.html http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0052.html Trackers can hand out .torrent files if asked (bencoded dictionaries that describe filenames, sizes, checksums, directory structures of a torrents contents) but they don't have to; mostly they hand out peer lists of other clients .. peers can also answer requests for .torrent files. A .torrent file isn't enough to determine illegal content. Pornography can be contained in files labelled "BeautifulSunset.mkv" and Rick Astley parody videos can frequently be found in files labelled "DirtyFilthyRepubicanFootTappingNudeAfrica.avi" Given that it's not clear how trackers could effectively filter by content that never actually traverses their servers.
    - TZubiri 2y ago
      Oh ok, it seems to be a misconception of mine then. Mathematically a tracker would offer a function that given a hash, it returns you a list of peers with that file. While a "torrent site" like TPB or SH, would offer a search mechanism, whereby they would host an index, content hashes and english descriptors, along with a search engine. A user would then need to first use the "torrent site" to enter their search terms, and find the hash, then they would need to give the hash to a tracker, which would return the list of peers? Is that right? In any case, each party in the transaction shares liability. If we were analyzing a drug case or a people trafficking case, each distributor, wholesaler or retailer would bear liability and face criminal charges. A legal defense of the type "I just connected buyers with sellers I never exchanged the drug" would not have much chance of succeding, although it is a common method to obstruct justice by complicating evidence gathering. (One member collects the money, the other gives the drugs.)

Ok. But what is the case law in hosting illegal content? Sure you may operate a torrent, but if your client is distributing child porn, in my view, you bear responsibility.

ranger_danger 2y ago

I don't think TPB ever hosted any copyrighted content, even indirectly by its users. Torrent peers do not ever send any file contents through the tracker.

defrost 2y ago

I'm backing ranger_danger here. In Law the technicalities matter. Trackers generally do not host any content, just hashcodes and (sometimes) meta data descriptions of content. If "your" (ie let's say _you_ TZubiri) client is distributing child pornography content because you have a partially downloaded CP file then that's on _you_ and not on the tracker. The "tracker" has unique hashcode signatures of tens of millions of torrents - it literaly just puts clients (such as the one that you might be running yourself on your machine in the example above) in touch with other clients who are "just asking" about the same unique hashcode signature. Some tracker affiliated websites (eg: TPB) might host searchable indexes of metadata associated with specific torrents (and still not host the torrents themselves) but "pure" trackers can literally operate with zero knowledge of any content - just arrange handshakes between clients looking for matching hashes - whether that's UbuntuLatest or DonkeyNotKong

TZubiri 2y ago
We agree in that if my client distributes illegal content, I am responsible, at least in part. On the other hand I also believe that a tracker that hosts hashes of illegal content, provides search facilities for and facilitates their download, is responsible, in a big way. That's my personal opinion and I think it's backed in cases like the pirate bay and sci hub. That 0 knowledge tracker is interesting, my first reaction is that it's going to end up in very nasty places like Tor, onion, etc..
- defrost 2y ago
  > That 0 knowledge tracker is interesting, Most actual trackers are zero knowledge. A tracker (bit of central software that handles 100+ thousand connections/second) is not a "torrent site" such as TPB, EZTV, etc. A tracker handshakes torrent clients and introduces peers to each other, it has no idea nor needs an idea that "SomeName 1080p DSPN" maps to D23F5C5AAE3D5C361476108C97557F200327718A All it needs is to store IP addresses that are interested in that hash and to pass handfuls of interested IP addresses to other interested parties (and some other bookkeeping). From an actual tracker PoV the content is irrelevant and there's no means of telling one thing from another other than size - it's how trackers have operated for 20+ years now. Here are some actual tracker addresses and ports udp://tracker.opentrackr.org:1337/announce udp://p4p.arenabg.com:1337/announce udp://tracker.torrent.eu.org:451/announce udp://tracker.dler.org:6969/announce udp://open.stealth.si:80/announce udp://ipv4.tracker.harry.lu:80/announce https://opentracker.i2p.rocks:443/announce Here's the bittorrent protocol: http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0052.html http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0052.html Trackers can hand out .torrent files if asked (bencoded dictionaries that describe filenames, sizes, checksums, directory structures of a torrents contents) but they don't have to; mostly they hand out peer lists of other clients .. peers can also answer requests for .torrent files. A .torrent file isn't enough to determine illegal content. Pornography can be contained in files labelled "BeautifulSunset.mkv" and Rick Astley parody videos can frequently be found in files labelled "DirtyFilthyRepubicanFootTappingNudeAfrica.avi" Given that it's not clear how trackers could effectively filter by content that never actually traverses their servers.
  - TZubiri 2y ago
    Oh ok, it seems to be a misconception of mine then. Mathematically a tracker would offer a function that given a hash, it returns you a list of peers with that file. While a "torrent site" like TPB or SH, would offer a search mechanism, whereby they would host an index, content hashes and english descriptors, along with a search engine. A user would then need to first use the "torrent site" to enter their search terms, and find the hash, then they would need to give the hash to a tracker, which would return the list of peers? Is that right? In any case, each party in the transaction shares liability. If we were analyzing a drug case or a people trafficking case, each distributor, wholesaler or retailer would bear liability and face criminal charges. A legal defense of the type "I just connected buyers with sellers I never exchanged the drug" would not have much chance of succeding, although it is a common method to obstruct justice by complicating evidence gathering. (One member collects the money, the other gives the drugs.)