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> Whereas if it’s written in a native language, I’d need to check out the source code and compile it myself – a big barrier to entry. Is it though? Rust/Zig/Go

> Whereas if it’s written in a native language, I’d need to check out the source code and compile it myself – a big barrier to entry. Is it though? Rust/Zig/Go programs are pretty much all incredibly easy to checkout and compile, it's one of the big selling points of those languages. And at the end of the day how often are javascript developers fixing the tooling they use even when it's written in javascript? I've always felt learning new languages give me not only new tools to use but shapes the way I think about solving problems.

timeon 2y ago
I wonder if author is aware that Node.js is not written in JavaScript.
- zero_shift 2y ago
  Probably: he is a contributor to Servo
- claytongulick 2y ago
  It depends. A lot of it absolutely is, I've been through a ton of that source. Low level stuff is mostly c++ to talk to v8 or do system calls, talk to libuv, etc... but even that stuff has a bunch of js to wrap and abstract and provide a clean DX.
M4v3R 2y ago
I agree with you on the easy part, but it’s definitely not as fast. In JS you get instant hot code reload and even without that the interpreter starts up pretty fast. In comparison Rust takes a while to recompile even with simple changes, and if you have more changes in many files (eg. switching between branches) then it’s really slow.
- mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
  This matters, a lot, for contributing to the tool authored in Rust. But for merely installing and benefiting from it, compile-time is largely a one-time cost that pays returns quite soon.
- sksxihve 2y ago
  I didn't say compiling was fast, though compiling go is pretty fast. I also don't think anyone is arguing that tools need to be written in AoT languages, if you or anyone want to use js and js tools go for it. I think having more choices is a good thing, and sometimes rewriting something from scratch will result in a cleaner/better version. The community at large is going to decide which tooling becomes the standard way to do it, so the author should make an argument on why the js tooling is better instead of weak statements like the one I quoted.
strken 2y ago
It's definitely more of a pain to figure out rustup than to use the Node.js environment that's already installed. As noted in the article, you can quite literally go edit the source of your NPM packages without downloading or compiling a single thing. Minor speedbumps like installing Rust don't stop me now, and probably don't stop you either, but they might have at the start of my career. You have to think about the marginal developers here: how many people are able to debug the simple thing who would be unable or unwilling to do it for the complicated thing? As you note, it's already quite rare to fix up one's tooling, so we can't afford to lose too many potential contributors. I like learning new languages too, but not to the extent that I'd choose to debug my toolchain in Zig while under time pressure. This is something I've actually done before, most notably for FontCustom, which was a lovably janky Ruby tool for generating font icons popular about a decade ago.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  That’s not objectively true at all. I learned to use Rust long before I ever touched a Node setup, and the first time I wanted to run a JS app it took me a lot longer to figure out how to do it than it did to type `cargo run foo`. Neither is easier than the other. Whichever one you already know will be easier for you, and that’s it.
  - strken 2y ago
    Sorry, I think we might be talking across each other. I am saying from the perspective of someone who is already using a full Node.js environment, adding Rust must necessarily increase complexity. I am taking this perspective because in the article we're talking about, the examples are exclusively JavaScript tooling like Rollup, Prettier, and ESLint, where the only people using those tools are JavaScript developers who are already running node. I have absolutely no interest in getting into a pissing match about whose language and ecosystem is better, and I in fact agree that the Rust tooling is less complicated than JS to start with. Nevertheless, the article is not about choosing either JS or Rust, it's about rewriting tools for working with JS in Rust, which necessarily makes you learn Rust on top of JS if you want to modify them.

timeon 2y ago

I wonder if author is aware that Node.js is not written in JavaScript.

zero_shift 2y ago
Probably: he is a contributor to Servo
claytongulick 2y ago
It depends. A lot of it absolutely is, I've been through a ton of that source. Low level stuff is mostly c++ to talk to v8 or do system calls, talk to libuv, etc... but even that stuff has a bunch of js to wrap and abstract and provide a clean DX.

M4v3R 2y ago

I agree with you on the easy part, but it’s definitely not as fast. In JS you get instant hot code reload and even without that the interpreter starts up pretty fast. In comparison Rust takes a while to recompile even with simple changes, and if you have more changes in many files (eg. switching between branches) then it’s really slow.

mtndew4brkfst 2y ago
This matters, a lot, for contributing to the tool authored in Rust. But for merely installing and benefiting from it, compile-time is largely a one-time cost that pays returns quite soon.
sksxihve 2y ago
I didn't say compiling was fast, though compiling go is pretty fast. I also don't think anyone is arguing that tools need to be written in AoT languages, if you or anyone want to use js and js tools go for it. I think having more choices is a good thing, and sometimes rewriting something from scratch will result in a cleaner/better version. The community at large is going to decide which tooling becomes the standard way to do it, so the author should make an argument on why the js tooling is better instead of weak statements like the one I quoted.

strken 2y ago

It's definitely more of a pain to figure out rustup than to use the Node.js environment that's already installed. As noted in the article, you can quite literally go edit the source of your NPM packages without downloading or compiling a single thing. Minor speedbumps like installing Rust don't stop me now, and probably don't stop you either, but they might have at the start of my career. You have to think about the marginal developers here: how many people are able to debug the simple thing who would be unable or unwilling to do it for the complicated thing? As you note, it's already quite rare to fix up one's tooling, so we can't afford to lose too many potential contributors. I like learning new languages too, but not to the extent that I'd choose to debug my toolchain in Zig while under time pressure. This is something I've actually done before, most notably for FontCustom, which was a lovably janky Ruby tool for generating font icons popular about a decade ago.

kstrauser 2y ago
That’s not objectively true at all. I learned to use Rust long before I ever touched a Node setup, and the first time I wanted to run a JS app it took me a lot longer to figure out how to do it than it did to type `cargo run foo`. Neither is easier than the other. Whichever one you already know will be easier for you, and that’s it.
- strken 2y ago
  Sorry, I think we might be talking across each other. I am saying from the perspective of someone who is already using a full Node.js environment, adding Rust must necessarily increase complexity. I am taking this perspective because in the article we're talking about, the examples are exclusively JavaScript tooling like Rollup, Prettier, and ESLint, where the only people using those tools are JavaScript developers who are already running node. I have absolutely no interest in getting into a pissing match about whose language and ecosystem is better, and I in fact agree that the Rust tooling is less complicated than JS to start with. Nevertheless, the article is not about choosing either JS or Rust, it's about rewriting tools for working with JS in Rust, which necessarily makes you learn Rust on top of JS if you want to modify them.