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The education system in the US is broadly staffed by the dumbest people from every walk of life. If they could make it elsewhere, they would. I don’t expect t

The education system in the US is broadly staffed by the dumbest people from every walk of life. If they could make it elsewhere, they would. I don’t expect this to be a popular take here, and most replies will be NAXALT fallacies, but in aggregate it’s the truth. Sorry, your retired CEO physics teacher who you loved was not a representative sample.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
krick 2y ago
It's not just USA, it's pretty much universal, as much as I've seen it. People like to pretend like it's some sort of noble profession, but I vividly remember having a conversation with recently graduated ex-classmates, where one of them was complaining that she failed to pass at every department she applied to, so she has no other choice than to apply for department of education (I guess? I don't know what is the name of the American equivalent of that thing: bachelor-level program for people who are going to be teachers). At that moment I felt suddenly validated in all my complaints about the system we just passed through.
- Gud 2y ago
  In some countries teaching is a highly respected profession. Switzerland and Finland comes to mind.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    You can't eat respect.
    - benjaminfh 2y ago
      In those places salary (and good public services) follows respect
      - llm_trw 2y ago
        Having lived in 'one of those places' no salary does not.
    - Gud 2y ago
      They are well compensated. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-salaries-teachers_how-well-does-switzerland-pay-its-teachers/43100034 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-salaries-teachers...
      - CalRobert 2y ago
        That article, after a very pushy illegal gdpr consent banner, says pay is stagnant and hours long
        Gud 2y ago
        Hours are long for everyone in Switzerland. 110k in Switzerland is a good pay today. The article is from 2017.
- twoWhlsGud 2y ago
  I went to public schools in middle class neighborhoods in California from the late sixties to the early eighties. My teachers were largely excellent. I think that was due to cultural and economic factors - teaching was considered a profession for idealistic folks to go into at the time and the spread between rich and poor was less dramatic in the 50s and 60s (when my teachers were deciding their professions). So the culture made it attractive and economics made it possible. Another critical thing we seem to have lost.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    It was the tail end of when smart women had few intellectually stimulating options and teacher was a decent choice.
    - AStonesThrow 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
        It appears you think that giving women the same opportunities as men is a bad thing.
        foldr 2y ago
        AStonesThrow has, err, strong opinions on this kind of thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41885547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41885547 I would question the utility of engaging.
      - watwut 2y ago
        What I take from this is that you dont like reading about history much, with clear exception of overly optimistic religious texts. The religious vocation frequently got you into pretty abusive situation and the #1 expectation was "obeisance". That was what you was supposed to do, primary. Not exactly what person you are responding to is writing about. Moreover, women never needed to start out as teachers to "be ready for childcare". The childcare expectations were much lower at the time, but amount of chores at home massively higher.
- smokel 2y ago
  Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. We educate everyone to be the smartest person in the class, and then we don't have jobs for them. And then we complain that education is not good enough. Shouldn't we conclude that education is already a bit too good?
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> your retired CEO physics teacher who you loved was not a representative sample Hey, he was Microsoft’s patent attorney who retired to teach calculus!
lionkor 2y ago
In Germany, you have to do the equivalent of a master's degree (and then a bunch) to teach in normal public schools
- xyzzy123 2y ago
  This selects for people willing to do 8 years of schooling to earn 60k EUR.
- dxuh 2y ago
  And yet a staggering percentage of them are incompetent (both in their subject and as educators generally). "and then a bunch" is somewhat misleading. They in fact take easier and fewer classes in the subjects that they are studying for, but they have to take extra classes on education, which afaik are not that hard to pass. Getting a "Lehramt" degree is much easier than getting the regular degree in a subject, which is why many people that are simply not good enough for the real thing do it. Also we have a teacher shortage and more and more teachers are not in fact people that received an education you usually have to get as a teacher, but are just regular people with either a degree in the subject they are teaching or a degree in almost anything (depends on how desperate the schools are and what subjects they are hiring for).
icehawk 2y ago
So how many hours have you spent as a teacher? Because if you're putting forth the assertion "If they could make it elsewhere, they would." you've certainly had spent sometime teaching, yes? I think it would be good to understand how much experience teaching it took for you to come to that conclusion.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

krick 2y ago

It's not just USA, it's pretty much universal, as much as I've seen it. People like to pretend like it's some sort of noble profession, but I vividly remember having a conversation with recently graduated ex-classmates, where one of them was complaining that she failed to pass at every department she applied to, so she has no other choice than to apply for department of education (I guess? I don't know what is the name of the American equivalent of that thing: bachelor-level program for people who are going to be teachers). At that moment I felt suddenly validated in all my complaints about the system we just passed through.

Gud 2y ago
In some countries teaching is a highly respected profession. Switzerland and Finland comes to mind.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  You can't eat respect.
  - benjaminfh 2y ago
    In those places salary (and good public services) follows respect
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      Having lived in 'one of those places' no salary does not.
  - Gud 2y ago
    They are well compensated. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-salaries-teachers_how-well-does-switzerland-pay-its-teachers/43100034 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/swiss-salaries-teachers...
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      That article, after a very pushy illegal gdpr consent banner, says pay is stagnant and hours long
      - Gud 2y ago
        Hours are long for everyone in Switzerland. 110k in Switzerland is a good pay today. The article is from 2017.
twoWhlsGud 2y ago
I went to public schools in middle class neighborhoods in California from the late sixties to the early eighties. My teachers were largely excellent. I think that was due to cultural and economic factors - teaching was considered a profession for idealistic folks to go into at the time and the spread between rich and poor was less dramatic in the 50s and 60s (when my teachers were deciding their professions). So the culture made it attractive and economics made it possible. Another critical thing we seem to have lost.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  It was the tail end of when smart women had few intellectually stimulating options and teacher was a decent choice.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      It appears you think that giving women the same opportunities as men is a bad thing.
      - foldr 2y ago
        AStonesThrow has, err, strong opinions on this kind of thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41885547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41885547 I would question the utility of engaging.
    - watwut 2y ago
      What I take from this is that you dont like reading about history much, with clear exception of overly optimistic religious texts. The religious vocation frequently got you into pretty abusive situation and the #1 expectation was "obeisance". That was what you was supposed to do, primary. Not exactly what person you are responding to is writing about. Moreover, women never needed to start out as teachers to "be ready for childcare". The childcare expectations were much lower at the time, but amount of chores at home massively higher.
smokel 2y ago
Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. We educate everyone to be the smartest person in the class, and then we don't have jobs for them. And then we complain that education is not good enough. Shouldn't we conclude that education is already a bit too good?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> your retired CEO physics teacher who you loved was not a representative sample Hey, he was Microsoft’s patent attorney who retired to teach calculus!

lionkor 2y ago

In Germany, you have to do the equivalent of a master's degree (and then a bunch) to teach in normal public schools

xyzzy123 2y ago
This selects for people willing to do 8 years of schooling to earn 60k EUR.
dxuh 2y ago
And yet a staggering percentage of them are incompetent (both in their subject and as educators generally). "and then a bunch" is somewhat misleading. They in fact take easier and fewer classes in the subjects that they are studying for, but they have to take extra classes on education, which afaik are not that hard to pass. Getting a "Lehramt" degree is much easier than getting the regular degree in a subject, which is why many people that are simply not good enough for the real thing do it. Also we have a teacher shortage and more and more teachers are not in fact people that received an education you usually have to get as a teacher, but are just regular people with either a degree in the subject they are teaching or a degree in almost anything (depends on how desperate the schools are and what subjects they are hiring for).

icehawk 2y ago

So how many hours have you spent as a teacher? Because if you're putting forth the assertion "If they could make it elsewhere, they would." you've certainly had spent sometime teaching, yes? I think it would be good to understand how much experience teaching it took for you to come to that conclusion.