3 ms·

> (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once

> (think a car on the left in front of you who switches on indicators to merge in front of you) That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once it is safe for them to do so. What does the Tesla do (or not do) in this case that's bad?

cma 2y ago
Defensive driving is to assume they might not check their blindspot, etc. And just generally ease off in this situation if they would merge in tight if they began merging now.
- tverbeure 2y ago
  That’s the issue: I would immediately slow a little bit to let the other one merge. FSD seems to be noticing something, and eventually slow down, but the action is too subtle (if at all) to signal the other guy that you’re letting them merge.
hotspot_one 2y ago
> That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once it is safe for them to do so. Only under the assumption that the driver was trained in the US, to follow US traffic law, and is following that training. For example, in the EU, you switch on the indicators when you start the merge; the indicator shows that you ARE moving.
- sokoloff 2y ago
  That seems odd to the point of uselessness, and does not match the required training I received in Germany from my work colleagues at Daimler prior to being able to sign out company cars. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__9.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__9.html seems to be the relevant law in Germany, which Google translates to "(1) Anyone wishing to turn must announce this clearly and in good time; direction indicators must be used."
  - nielsole 2y ago
    Merging into the lane is probably better addressed by §7, with the same content: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StVO/7.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StVO/7.html
  - throw4950sh06 2y ago
    Maybe the guy was talking about the reality, not the theory. From my autobahn travels it seems like the Germans don't know how to turn on the blinkers.
    - xattt 2y ago
      > … the Germans don’t know how turn on the blinkers. [Insert nationality/regional area here] don’t know how to turn on the blinkers.
      - throw4950sh06 2y ago
        I wouldn't say so. It's a very marked difference with a sharp change the moment I drive through the border.
        xattt 2y ago
        I’m only saying this from my experience in Canada where every region thinks its drivers are the worst.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    I think the moral of the story is that cars may or may not turn their blinkers on. If they do, the self-driving should catch that just as easily and expect the car to switch lanes (with extreme caution).
- Zanfa 2y ago
  > For example, in the EU, you switch on the indicators when you start the merge; the indicator shows that you ARE moving. In my EU country it's theoretically at least 3 seconds before initiating the move.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    As I mentioned in my other comment, 1 second is negligible, I would even dare to say that 3 seconds, is, too. For a computer it should not be, however.
  - tirant 2y ago
    In general, the requirement is the following: a) Check for the possibility of the maneuver; b) signal the maneuver; c) perform the maneuver. However the signaling needs to be done in a way that it helps other road users to read and act according to your maneuver, so 3 seconds seems to be a good amount of time for that. There are, on the other hand, situations where signaling the maneuver is also desirable even though the maneuver might not be possible yet: merging into a full lane, so vehicles might free up some space to let you merge.
- valval 2y ago
  For anyone confused, this person’s statement about the EU is total bs.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    It's what I was taught: you switch on your indicators when you have checked that you are clear to merge and you have effectively committed. I always assume that someone who has put their indicators in is going to move according to them, whether it's clear or not.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      It is what I see in practice in Eastern Europe. They signal as they are shifting lanes. Even if they turn the blinker on and then start moving 1 second later, it could be considered the same thing as 1 second is negligible. Thus "the indicator shows that you ARE moving." is correct, at least in practice.
      - Lanolderen 2y ago
        It's the difference between actually purposefully blinking and blinking to avoid a fine. In the latter you just tap the blinker stalk as you're turning the wheel. If someone's trying to do a dangerousish turn (waiting for a line of cars to do an illegal U turn for example) they'll be blinking to signal intention most of the time.
    - lbschenkel 2y ago
      I don't doubt that it's the way you have been taught, but it doesn't make any sense. The whole point of blinkers/indicator lights in cars are to signal your intentions before you do them: if you're going to signal at the same time that you do the action you're signalling, you might as well not bother.
      - rcxdude 2y ago
        You signal in advance, but you check before you signal. Mirrors, signals, maneuver.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
tverbeure 2y ago
What I expect it to do is to be a courteous driver, and back off a little bit to signal to the car in front that I got the message and that it's safe to merge. FSD is already defensive to a fault, with frequent stop-and-go indecisions of when to merge onto a highway, but that's a whole other story. A major part of safe driving is about being predictable. You either commit and claim your right of way, or you don't. In this situation, both can be signaled easily to the other party by being a bit of a jerk (e.g. accelerating to close the gap and prevent somebody else from merging) or the opposite. Both are better than not doing anything at all and keeping the other dangling in a state of uncertainty. FSD is in an almost permanent state of being indecisive and unpredictable. It behaves like a scared teenager with a learner's permit. Again, totally different than my experience in Waymo in the urban jungle of San Francisco, who's a defensive but confident driver.

cma 2y ago

Defensive driving is to assume they might not check their blindspot, etc. And just generally ease off in this situation if they would merge in tight if they began merging now.

tverbeure 2y ago
That’s the issue: I would immediately slow a little bit to let the other one merge. FSD seems to be noticing something, and eventually slow down, but the action is too subtle (if at all) to signal the other guy that you’re letting them merge.

hotspot_one 2y ago

> That car is signaling an intention to merge into your lane once it is safe for them to do so. Only under the assumption that the driver was trained in the US, to follow US traffic law, and is following that training. For example, in the EU, you switch on the indicators when you start the merge; the indicator shows that you ARE moving.

sokoloff 2y ago
That seems odd to the point of uselessness, and does not match the required training I received in Germany from my work colleagues at Daimler prior to being able to sign out company cars. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__9.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__9.html seems to be the relevant law in Germany, which Google translates to "(1) Anyone wishing to turn must announce this clearly and in good time; direction indicators must be used."
- nielsole 2y ago
  Merging into the lane is probably better addressed by §7, with the same content: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StVO/7.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StVO/7.html
- throw4950sh06 2y ago
  Maybe the guy was talking about the reality, not the theory. From my autobahn travels it seems like the Germans don't know how to turn on the blinkers.
  - xattt 2y ago
    > … the Germans don’t know how turn on the blinkers. [Insert nationality/regional area here] don’t know how to turn on the blinkers.
    - throw4950sh06 2y ago
      I wouldn't say so. It's a very marked difference with a sharp change the moment I drive through the border.
      - xattt 2y ago
        I’m only saying this from my experience in Canada where every region thinks its drivers are the worst.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  I think the moral of the story is that cars may or may not turn their blinkers on. If they do, the self-driving should catch that just as easily and expect the car to switch lanes (with extreme caution).
Zanfa 2y ago
> For example, in the EU, you switch on the indicators when you start the merge; the indicator shows that you ARE moving. In my EU country it's theoretically at least 3 seconds before initiating the move.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  As I mentioned in my other comment, 1 second is negligible, I would even dare to say that 3 seconds, is, too. For a computer it should not be, however.
- tirant 2y ago
  In general, the requirement is the following: a) Check for the possibility of the maneuver; b) signal the maneuver; c) perform the maneuver. However the signaling needs to be done in a way that it helps other road users to read and act according to your maneuver, so 3 seconds seems to be a good amount of time for that. There are, on the other hand, situations where signaling the maneuver is also desirable even though the maneuver might not be possible yet: merging into a full lane, so vehicles might free up some space to let you merge.
valval 2y ago
For anyone confused, this person’s statement about the EU is total bs.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  It's what I was taught: you switch on your indicators when you have checked that you are clear to merge and you have effectively committed. I always assume that someone who has put their indicators in is going to move according to them, whether it's clear or not.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    It is what I see in practice in Eastern Europe. They signal as they are shifting lanes. Even if they turn the blinker on and then start moving 1 second later, it could be considered the same thing as 1 second is negligible. Thus "the indicator shows that you ARE moving." is correct, at least in practice.
    - Lanolderen 2y ago
      It's the difference between actually purposefully blinking and blinking to avoid a fine. In the latter you just tap the blinker stalk as you're turning the wheel. If someone's trying to do a dangerousish turn (waiting for a line of cars to do an illegal U turn for example) they'll be blinking to signal intention most of the time.
  - lbschenkel 2y ago
    I don't doubt that it's the way you have been taught, but it doesn't make any sense. The whole point of blinkers/indicator lights in cars are to signal your intentions before you do them: if you're going to signal at the same time that you do the action you're signalling, you might as well not bother.
    - rcxdude 2y ago
      You signal in advance, but you check before you signal. Mirrors, signals, maneuver.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

tverbeure 2y ago

What I expect it to do is to be a courteous driver, and back off a little bit to signal to the car in front that I got the message and that it's safe to merge. FSD is already defensive to a fault, with frequent stop-and-go indecisions of when to merge onto a highway, but that's a whole other story. A major part of safe driving is about being predictable. You either commit and claim your right of way, or you don't. In this situation, both can be signaled easily to the other party by being a bit of a jerk (e.g. accelerating to close the gap and prevent somebody else from merging) or the opposite. Both are better than not doing anything at all and keeping the other dangling in a state of uncertainty. FSD is in an almost permanent state of being indecisive and unpredictable. It behaves like a scared teenager with a learner's permit. Again, totally different than my experience in Waymo in the urban jungle of San Francisco, who's a defensive but confident driver.