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That is not accountability. Can the algorithm be sent to jail if it commit crimes?

Timwi 2y ago
Yes. Not literally of course, but it can be deleted/decommissioned, which is even more effective than temporary imprisonment (it's equivalent to death penalty but without the moral component obviously).
- hammock 2y ago
  Why should it be obvious that the moral component is absent? Removing an algorithm is like reducing the set of choices available to society… roughly equivalent to a law or regulation, or worse, a destructive act of coercion. There are moral implications of laws even though laws are not human
lucianbr 2y ago
Is the point revenge or fixing the problem? Fixing the algorithm to never do that again is easy. Or is the point to instill fear?
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  The point is that "accountability of an algorithm" is a category error.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    That's reasonable. Let's just call it root cause analysis in this case. The original point seemed to me to be "we can't use computers because they're not accountable". I say, we can, because we can do fault analysis and fix what is wrong. I won't say "we can hold them accountable", to avoid the category error.
    - sethammons 2y ago
      I think folks may have different interpretations of accountability. If your algorithm kills someone, is the accountability an improvement to the algorithm? A fine and no change to the algorithm? Imprisonment for related humans? Dissolution of some legal entity?
- lazide 2y ago
  The point of accountability is to deter harmful activity by ensuring actions/decisions somewhere result in consequences for who are responsible for them. Those consequences can be good or bad, though it is often used to refer to bad. An algorithm has no concept of consequences (unless programmed to be aware of such), and the more plausibly whoever wrote it can deny knowledge of the resulting consequences, also the more whoever wrote it can avoid consequences/accountability themselves. After all, we can tell Soldiers or Clerks that ‘just following orders’ is no excuse. But computers don’t do anything but follow orders. Most people/organizations/etc have strong incentives to be able to avoid negative consequences, regardless of their actions or the results of their actions. Everyone around them has strong incentives to ensure negative consequences for actions with foreseeable negative outcomes are applied to them. Sometimes, organizations and people will find a way for the consequences of their actions to be borne by other people that have no actual control or ability to change actions being performed (scapegoat). Accountability ideally should not refer to that situation, but sometimes is abused to mean that. That tends to result in particularly nasty outcomes.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    > The point of accountability is to deter harmful activity by ensuring actions/decisions somewhere result in consequences What I read is yes, the point is revenge. If I can offer you a different way of preventing harmful activity, apparently you're not interested. There has to be some unpleasant consequences inflicted, you insist on it. I think you should reconsider.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Every rule/boundary/structure needs both a carrot, and a stick, to continue to exist long term. Ideally, the stick never gets used. We aren’t dealing with ideals, however, we have to deal with reality. On any sufficiently large scale, an inability/lack of will to use the stick, results in wide scale malfeasance. Because other constrains elsewhere result in wide scale push to break those rules/boundaries/structures for competitive reasons. No carrot, magnifies the need to use the stick, eh? And turns it into nothing but beatings. Which is not sustainable either. It has nothing to do with revenge. But if it makes you feel more comfortable, go ahead and call it that. It’s ensuring cause and effect get coupled usefully. And is necessary for proper conditioning, and learning. One cannot learn properly if there is no ‘failure’ consequence correct? All you need to do to verify this is, literally, look around at the structures you see everywhere, and what happens when they are or are not enforced. (Aka accountability vs a lack of it).
- melagonster 2y ago
  If algorithm can do some thing wrong, but nobody should be responsible for it, everyone will just hide their crimes under algorithm and replace it when someone find problem.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    If a mechanical device does something wrong, are we in the same conundrum? I don't see what the problem is. There's malice, there's negligence, and there's accident. We can figure out which it was, and act accordingly. Must we collapse these to a single situation with a single solution?
    - melagonster 2y ago
      >If a mechanical device does something wrong, are we in the same conundrum? Sure! But oop mentioned a phenomenon that some companies can hide after algorithms and reject taking responsibility for it. If machines cause damage, people can easily find who's fault, but sometimes the same way does not work on software.
closeparen 2y ago
Interesting that you mention jail… the rule of law is kind of the ultimate accountability sink.

Yes. Not literally of course, but it can be deleted/decommissioned, which is even more effective than temporary imprisonment (it's equivalent to death penalty but without the moral component obviously).

hammock 2y ago
Why should it be obvious that the moral component is absent? Removing an algorithm is like reducing the set of choices available to society… roughly equivalent to a law or regulation, or worse, a destructive act of coercion. There are moral implications of laws even though laws are not human

lucianbr 2y ago

Is the point revenge or fixing the problem? Fixing the algorithm to never do that again is easy. Or is the point to instill fear?

TeMPOraL 2y ago
The point is that "accountability of an algorithm" is a category error.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  That's reasonable. Let's just call it root cause analysis in this case. The original point seemed to me to be "we can't use computers because they're not accountable". I say, we can, because we can do fault analysis and fix what is wrong. I won't say "we can hold them accountable", to avoid the category error.
  - sethammons 2y ago
    I think folks may have different interpretations of accountability. If your algorithm kills someone, is the accountability an improvement to the algorithm? A fine and no change to the algorithm? Imprisonment for related humans? Dissolution of some legal entity?
lazide 2y ago
The point of accountability is to deter harmful activity by ensuring actions/decisions somewhere result in consequences for who are responsible for them. Those consequences can be good or bad, though it is often used to refer to bad. An algorithm has no concept of consequences (unless programmed to be aware of such), and the more plausibly whoever wrote it can deny knowledge of the resulting consequences, also the more whoever wrote it can avoid consequences/accountability themselves. After all, we can tell Soldiers or Clerks that ‘just following orders’ is no excuse. But computers don’t do anything but follow orders. Most people/organizations/etc have strong incentives to be able to avoid negative consequences, regardless of their actions or the results of their actions. Everyone around them has strong incentives to ensure negative consequences for actions with foreseeable negative outcomes are applied to them. Sometimes, organizations and people will find a way for the consequences of their actions to be borne by other people that have no actual control or ability to change actions being performed (scapegoat). Accountability ideally should not refer to that situation, but sometimes is abused to mean that. That tends to result in particularly nasty outcomes.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  > The point of accountability is to deter harmful activity by ensuring actions/decisions somewhere result in consequences What I read is yes, the point is revenge. If I can offer you a different way of preventing harmful activity, apparently you're not interested. There has to be some unpleasant consequences inflicted, you insist on it. I think you should reconsider.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Every rule/boundary/structure needs both a carrot, and a stick, to continue to exist long term. Ideally, the stick never gets used. We aren’t dealing with ideals, however, we have to deal with reality. On any sufficiently large scale, an inability/lack of will to use the stick, results in wide scale malfeasance. Because other constrains elsewhere result in wide scale push to break those rules/boundaries/structures for competitive reasons. No carrot, magnifies the need to use the stick, eh? And turns it into nothing but beatings. Which is not sustainable either. It has nothing to do with revenge. But if it makes you feel more comfortable, go ahead and call it that. It’s ensuring cause and effect get coupled usefully. And is necessary for proper conditioning, and learning. One cannot learn properly if there is no ‘failure’ consequence correct? All you need to do to verify this is, literally, look around at the structures you see everywhere, and what happens when they are or are not enforced. (Aka accountability vs a lack of it).
melagonster 2y ago
If algorithm can do some thing wrong, but nobody should be responsible for it, everyone will just hide their crimes under algorithm and replace it when someone find problem.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  If a mechanical device does something wrong, are we in the same conundrum? I don't see what the problem is. There's malice, there's negligence, and there's accident. We can figure out which it was, and act accordingly. Must we collapse these to a single situation with a single solution?
  - melagonster 2y ago
    >If a mechanical device does something wrong, are we in the same conundrum? Sure! But oop mentioned a phenomenon that some companies can hide after algorithms and reject taking responsibility for it. If machines cause damage, people can easily find who's fault, but sometimes the same way does not work on software.

closeparen 2y ago

Interesting that you mention jail… the rule of law is kind of the ultimate accountability sink.