13 ms·

Why Surgeons Are Wearing the Apple Vision Pro in Operating Rooms

95 points by williamstein 2y ago

ListeningPie 2y ago
Does Apple consider the Vision Pro a commercial flop?
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  They just shipped vision os 2 and have been delivering a bit more immersive content to apple TV. Certainly they're still searching for a killer app (IMO the focus on the landing page for reliving memories is a bit uninspired, not exactly forward-looking) but I can't see them packing up and abandoning the AR space entirely https://www.apple.com/visionos/visionos-2/ https://www.apple.com/visionos/visionos-2/
- crooked-v 2y ago
  By all indications, they never expected it to be a wild success in the first place (just look at how limited their own orders for screens/lenses were). Of course, Apple is notoriously tight-lipped, but from the outside it looks to me an awful lot like a continuing R&D program that's also coincidentally made some money by selling alpha hardware.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    I think at Apple scale, there come other dynamics into play too; like having to maintain a certain reputation to drive sales in other areas, or foster goodwill with technology enthusiasts by catering to a niche not too typical for Apple. The Vision Pro feels like basic research; something that probably won’t be useful on its own, but is part of a larger manoeuvre and will yield benefits later on. If you read up on all the experts and knowledge involved in the product development, there’s a high chance something new entirely might come out of this.
randmeerkat 2y ago
The Microsoft HoloLens also supposedly had “business” applications, but was ultimately discontinued. The Apple Vision Pro was DOA, Apple just refuses to come to terms with that.
- chaostheory 2y ago
  The first iPhone also had a lot of criticism for major missing features. I am confident that Apple will address a lot of it in the 2nd version. Then I predict that the 3rd iteration will start to make inroads to the masses.
  - askafriend 2y ago
    This is exactly how it'll happen. This is also exactly how Apple Watch happened.
    - zombiwoof 2y ago
      Completely different margins
      - askafriend 2y ago
        I think the Watch is certainly more straightforward of a product cycle and happened on a faster time scale. I think iterations of Vision Pro will take years and the final cost will not be what it is today. What everyone sees today is a developer toolkit that also serves as a public demo. It is not a consumer product that can be scaled (yet).
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    I've heard this many times, and as someone who owned an original iPhone, I don't buy this argument at all. First, when I got my first iPhone, I was amazed by it. I used it all the time. Yes, there were missing features and shortcomings, but many/most of those missing features were obvious, and it was actually pretty delightful that with every new software update I'd cross some of those missing features off the list. None of that dynamic exists with the Apple Vision Pro. Even big Apple fanboys end up leaving it unused after the novelty wears off because it's fundamentally a solution looking for a problem. People aren't leaving it untouched in a drawer because there are just a couple missing features they want. Now, all that said, as much as I would dread having this computer strapped to my face as a "normal" person, I think the use case given in this article makes perfect sense. The surgeon is doing a specific task, and the Vision Pro helps with that specific task. While I believe the Vision Pro will fail as a general consumer product, I hope it can live on for these niche use cases, although I don't know if the economics will make sense for such a relatively small market.
jazzyjackson 2y ago
"allow a surgeon anywhere in the world to view an operating surgeon’s viewpoint and give them advice." Have they shipped telepresence where the camera feed of one headset is live streamed to another? For getting expert advice remotely this does sound like a killer app (or should I say lifesaving?) , like having a voice in your head who is situated in the same viewpoint as you
- threeseed 2y ago
  It's available now but you have to request permission from Apple. But once you do you can access the camera feed, compress and stream across the world.
- iwaztomack 2y ago
  If there's one thing surgeons like, it is advice from other surgeons.
  - kashunstva 2y ago
    > If there's one thing surgeons like, it is advice from other surgeons I’m guessing that /s applies here; but since I’m married to a surgeon and through her, understand that the truth around that, and around advice-taking and -giving behaviour in and out of the OR is far more nuanced than you might imagine.
    - iwaztomack 2y ago
      That's cool. I actually am a surgeon.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    Ideally make it a group session. If there’s one thing surgeons like even more, it’s advice from a bunch of other surgeons dialed in from lunch, all giving advice at once.
tomohelix 2y ago
The Kinect was revolutionary and had interesting applications beyond consumer uses. Same with Hololens. Same with Google Glass. Same with 3D TVs. Same with others tech ahead of its time. IMO, Apple's most successful approach is perfecting an already marketed product and turn it into a global phenomenon. As this article pointed out, the AVP (not aliens vs predator) has some advantages and definitely an improvement. But this first version is still not improved enough to reach mass appeal. Perhaps the next one?
bushbaba 2y ago
VR is tech in search of a problem. The iPod and iPhone had clear applications and user frustration being solved. I’m still unconvinced VR will have mass market appeal.
- hn72774 2y ago
  Racing games seem to be a niche that makes sense. The tech will keep shrinking and the cost will come down. We are still in the early adopter phase.
- threeseed 2y ago
  Not sure if you've experienced the Vision Pro demo. But everyone that I know who has came away fully understanding what Apple is trying to do. Virtual experiences e.g. being front row at a sports game or concert, watching movies with friends in a theatre, climbing Mount Everest etc. And working with multiple screens. If it can just do those two things it will be another iPad sized business which is still worth tens of billions to Apple.
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    To me, it seems obvious that they're trying to line things up now for when the hardware is developed enough in the future to actually be comfortable. In other words, they're targeting the tablet/phone-as-sunglasses market that doesn't exist yet, so that when it does arrive they're already the best offering by miles.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  The Apple Vision target isn't VR, it's AR (but can also coincidentally do VR, because the necessary hardware for AR enables that). That may sound pedantic, but actually it's a pretty huge difference. They don't want to sell a device primarily for closed-off experiences; they want to sell an iPad on your face that you can also, if you want, use for movies and whatever.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    > they want to sell an iPad on your face that you can also, if you want, use for movies and whatever. Why would anyone think your average person wants an iPad on your face?
vunderba 2y ago
Although this is only tangential, the untapped potential for AR (once the price comes down) in education is absolutely fantastic. Everything from: - overlaying explanations, diagrams, realtime simulated current flows onto circuit boards as you are looking at them - appliance / home repair - juggling/sleight of hand - its significantly easier to learn these kinds of skills from a human (or in this case a virtual human) so that your angle is the same instead of a video where its reversed - artistry - place a model of something in the center of your living room, and sketch on a canvas from it as you walk around it And these are just a few things I came up with based on my own personal hobbies. Everyone who worships at the proverbial alter of Apollo will likely have their own wishlist.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > Although this is only tangential, the untapped potential for AR (once the price comes down) in education is absolutely fantastic. I'm highly, highly skeptical. There is a lot of evidence that people (especially children) learn much better through low tech approaches than higher tech ones (I'm pretty sure there was an article on HN recently comparing how kids learned when reading paper books compared to screens).
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    At that point if you can understand context and overlay relevant information, it’s not education, it’s augmentation.
  - djtango 2y ago
    As usual the answer is probably "it depends" Old school pen and paper and physical books tap into tactile learning. Even writing on my tablet isn't as good as just scribbling on some scratch so I'm definitely team analogue. But its hard to not get excited for the prospect of being able to bring stuff like the dinosaurs and space to life for kids.
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    AR wouldn't completely replace regular forms of learning but it does AUGMENT them very well. There are VR chemistry and anatomy programs that are amazing. Being able to scale a 3D model up and down in size is amazing.
danielktdoranie 2y ago
[flagged]
autoexec 2y ago
> Ghazi says that as these headsets are increasingly brought into operating rooms, it’s crucial for doctors to take precautions, especially around patient privacy. “Any device that is connected to a network or WiFi signal, has the potential to be exposed or hacked, Never mind being hacked, what data is being sent to and collected by Apple? Why should I trust them? I'd be furious if I found out my doctor was using a product like this without my knowledge and consent. Even if you, for whatever reason, actually believe that Apple and every Apple employee or third party contractor who might ever have access to your data is 100% infallibly honest and incapable of error once VR headsets become common in the surgery other companies pushing that kind of tech will want in on the action including facebook and microsoft.
- BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
  In the article it states that the patients were informed of the use of vision pros and had the choice to opt out
  - autoexec 2y ago
    If it catches on, I wouldn't want to have to assume that would always be the case.
rldjbpin 2y ago
i failed to understand from the article how avp is better than any other ar device for this purpose. personally it is hard to tell what made the surgeons found groundbreaking about this device, as the ability to see another video feed would have been equally as easy on other platforms, if not easier.

95 points by williamstein 2y ago

ListeningPie 2y ago

Does Apple consider the Vision Pro a commercial flop?

jazzyjackson 2y ago
They just shipped vision os 2 and have been delivering a bit more immersive content to apple TV. Certainly they're still searching for a killer app (IMO the focus on the landing page for reliving memories is a bit uninspired, not exactly forward-looking) but I can't see them packing up and abandoning the AR space entirely https://www.apple.com/visionos/visionos-2/ https://www.apple.com/visionos/visionos-2/
crooked-v 2y ago
By all indications, they never expected it to be a wild success in the first place (just look at how limited their own orders for screens/lenses were). Of course, Apple is notoriously tight-lipped, but from the outside it looks to me an awful lot like a continuing R&D program that's also coincidentally made some money by selling alpha hardware.
- 9dev 2y ago
  I think at Apple scale, there come other dynamics into play too; like having to maintain a certain reputation to drive sales in other areas, or foster goodwill with technology enthusiasts by catering to a niche not too typical for Apple. The Vision Pro feels like basic research; something that probably won’t be useful on its own, but is part of a larger manoeuvre and will yield benefits later on. If you read up on all the experts and knowledge involved in the product development, there’s a high chance something new entirely might come out of this.

randmeerkat 2y ago

The Microsoft HoloLens also supposedly had “business” applications, but was ultimately discontinued. The Apple Vision Pro was DOA, Apple just refuses to come to terms with that.

chaostheory 2y ago
The first iPhone also had a lot of criticism for major missing features. I am confident that Apple will address a lot of it in the 2nd version. Then I predict that the 3rd iteration will start to make inroads to the masses.
- askafriend 2y ago
  This is exactly how it'll happen. This is also exactly how Apple Watch happened.
  - zombiwoof 2y ago
    Completely different margins
    - askafriend 2y ago
      I think the Watch is certainly more straightforward of a product cycle and happened on a faster time scale. I think iterations of Vision Pro will take years and the final cost will not be what it is today. What everyone sees today is a developer toolkit that also serves as a public demo. It is not a consumer product that can be scaled (yet).
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  I've heard this many times, and as someone who owned an original iPhone, I don't buy this argument at all. First, when I got my first iPhone, I was amazed by it. I used it all the time. Yes, there were missing features and shortcomings, but many/most of those missing features were obvious, and it was actually pretty delightful that with every new software update I'd cross some of those missing features off the list. None of that dynamic exists with the Apple Vision Pro. Even big Apple fanboys end up leaving it unused after the novelty wears off because it's fundamentally a solution looking for a problem. People aren't leaving it untouched in a drawer because there are just a couple missing features they want. Now, all that said, as much as I would dread having this computer strapped to my face as a "normal" person, I think the use case given in this article makes perfect sense. The surgeon is doing a specific task, and the Vision Pro helps with that specific task. While I believe the Vision Pro will fail as a general consumer product, I hope it can live on for these niche use cases, although I don't know if the economics will make sense for such a relatively small market.

jazzyjackson 2y ago

"allow a surgeon anywhere in the world to view an operating surgeon’s viewpoint and give them advice." Have they shipped telepresence where the camera feed of one headset is live streamed to another? For getting expert advice remotely this does sound like a killer app (or should I say lifesaving?) , like having a voice in your head who is situated in the same viewpoint as you

threeseed 2y ago
It's available now but you have to request permission from Apple. But once you do you can access the camera feed, compress and stream across the world.
iwaztomack 2y ago
If there's one thing surgeons like, it is advice from other surgeons.
- kashunstva 2y ago
  > If there's one thing surgeons like, it is advice from other surgeons I’m guessing that /s applies here; but since I’m married to a surgeon and through her, understand that the truth around that, and around advice-taking and -giving behaviour in and out of the OR is far more nuanced than you might imagine.
  - iwaztomack 2y ago
    That's cool. I actually am a surgeon.
- 9dev 2y ago
  Ideally make it a group session. If there’s one thing surgeons like even more, it’s advice from a bunch of other surgeons dialed in from lunch, all giving advice at once.

tomohelix 2y ago

The Kinect was revolutionary and had interesting applications beyond consumer uses. Same with Hololens. Same with Google Glass. Same with 3D TVs. Same with others tech ahead of its time. IMO, Apple's most successful approach is perfecting an already marketed product and turn it into a global phenomenon. As this article pointed out, the AVP (not aliens vs predator) has some advantages and definitely an improvement. But this first version is still not improved enough to reach mass appeal. Perhaps the next one?

bushbaba 2y ago

VR is tech in search of a problem. The iPod and iPhone had clear applications and user frustration being solved. I’m still unconvinced VR will have mass market appeal.

hn72774 2y ago
Racing games seem to be a niche that makes sense. The tech will keep shrinking and the cost will come down. We are still in the early adopter phase.
threeseed 2y ago
Not sure if you've experienced the Vision Pro demo. But everyone that I know who has came away fully understanding what Apple is trying to do. Virtual experiences e.g. being front row at a sports game or concert, watching movies with friends in a theatre, climbing Mount Everest etc. And working with multiple screens. If it can just do those two things it will be another iPad sized business which is still worth tens of billions to Apple.
- crooked-v 2y ago
  To me, it seems obvious that they're trying to line things up now for when the hardware is developed enough in the future to actually be comfortable. In other words, they're targeting the tablet/phone-as-sunglasses market that doesn't exist yet, so that when it does arrive they're already the best offering by miles.
crooked-v 2y ago
The Apple Vision target isn't VR, it's AR (but can also coincidentally do VR, because the necessary hardware for AR enables that). That may sound pedantic, but actually it's a pretty huge difference. They don't want to sell a device primarily for closed-off experiences; they want to sell an iPad on your face that you can also, if you want, use for movies and whatever.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > they want to sell an iPad on your face that you can also, if you want, use for movies and whatever. Why would anyone think your average person wants an iPad on your face?

vunderba 2y ago

Although this is only tangential, the untapped potential for AR (once the price comes down) in education is absolutely fantastic. Everything from: - overlaying explanations, diagrams, realtime simulated current flows onto circuit boards as you are looking at them - appliance / home repair - juggling/sleight of hand - its significantly easier to learn these kinds of skills from a human (or in this case a virtual human) so that your angle is the same instead of a video where its reversed - artistry - place a model of something in the center of your living room, and sketch on a canvas from it as you walk around it And these are just a few things I came up with based on my own personal hobbies. Everyone who worships at the proverbial alter of Apollo will likely have their own wishlist.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> Although this is only tangential, the untapped potential for AR (once the price comes down) in education is absolutely fantastic. I'm highly, highly skeptical. There is a lot of evidence that people (especially children) learn much better through low tech approaches than higher tech ones (I'm pretty sure there was an article on HN recently comparing how kids learned when reading paper books compared to screens).
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  At that point if you can understand context and overlay relevant information, it’s not education, it’s augmentation.
- djtango 2y ago
  As usual the answer is probably "it depends" Old school pen and paper and physical books tap into tactile learning. Even writing on my tablet isn't as good as just scribbling on some scratch so I'm definitely team analogue. But its hard to not get excited for the prospect of being able to bring stuff like the dinosaurs and space to life for kids.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  AR wouldn't completely replace regular forms of learning but it does AUGMENT them very well. There are VR chemistry and anatomy programs that are amazing. Being able to scale a 3D model up and down in size is amazing.

danielktdoranie 2y ago

[flagged]

autoexec 2y ago

> Ghazi says that as these headsets are increasingly brought into operating rooms, it’s crucial for doctors to take precautions, especially around patient privacy. “Any device that is connected to a network or WiFi signal, has the potential to be exposed or hacked, Never mind being hacked, what data is being sent to and collected by Apple? Why should I trust them? I'd be furious if I found out my doctor was using a product like this without my knowledge and consent. Even if you, for whatever reason, actually believe that Apple and every Apple employee or third party contractor who might ever have access to your data is 100% infallibly honest and incapable of error once VR headsets become common in the surgery other companies pushing that kind of tech will want in on the action including facebook and microsoft.

BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
In the article it states that the patients were informed of the use of vision pros and had the choice to opt out
- autoexec 2y ago
  If it catches on, I wouldn't want to have to assume that would always be the case.

rldjbpin 2y ago

i failed to understand from the article how avp is better than any other ar device for this purpose. personally it is hard to tell what made the surgeons found groundbreaking about this device, as the ability to see another video feed would have been equally as easy on other platforms, if not easier.