4 ms·

I don’t know the situation with Boeing. But unions are sort of cancers of economy, which will grow and rotten healthy institutions. Their demands will grow inde

by aborsy 2y ago

I don’t know the situation with Boeing. But unions are sort of cancers of economy, which will grow and rotten healthy institutions. Their demands will grow indefinitely, as they become more and more powerful. At some point, there is no way back. Look at their outcomes in France! The problems seem to be increasingly spreading to US.

thinkcontext 2y ago
Union membership has been declining since the 60s. In 1983 membership was 20% in 2015 it was under 10%. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-united-states/ https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-u...
- aborsy 2y ago
  Factor 2 might be roughly the decline in the size of the manufacturing sector/GDP in that time frame. At least that’s a contributing factor. In other words, some of them were expensive and outsourced.
chasil 2y ago
The most important thing that unions do is raise safety standards. "Decreased unionization rates in the United States have been linked to an increase in occupational fatalities." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health "The Local Average Treatment Effect of a 1% decline in unionisation attributable to RTW is about a 5% increase in the rate of occupational fatalities. In total, RTW laws have led to a 14.2% increase in occupational mortality through decreased unionisation." https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736 https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  A union worker forgot bolts on the door plug on the Alaska plane, and workers from the other union (SPEEA) designed MCAS, which was one of the causes of the two 737 Max crashes.
  - defrost 2y ago
    So? These were procedural errors - the company cut back on previously enforced protocols to check and double check work. In general unions are pro health and safety procedures and have no objection to work quality procedural checks either. It's the cost cutting culture imported from the non-Boeing crowd imported post merger that is at fault here. You're simply having a cheap shot at unions here rather than making any observation of depth.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      > In general unions are pro health and safety procedures Management and non union workers at Boeing would make the same claim. > You're simply having a cheap shot at unions here rather than making any observation of depth. I could be wrong. The part we do have evidence about is who did the work - it’s the union workers. It seems to me like some think the people doing the problematic work somehow don’t share in accountability at all. I think it is unlikely that only management or executives or the “company” or whoever is solely at fault.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
My recollection is that some European countries have better union laws where competition between unions is allowed rather than giving each union a legally protected monopoly where others cannot work. The lack of competition makes American unions especially bad and leads to corrupt union leaders or unnecessarily hostile relationships with their company. But it doesn’t have to be that way. There might be better balanced approaches.
- aborsy 2y ago
  Yes, unions in Germany are more decentralized and less malign. In France, unions are nationwide, and the same across the entire sectors. Having worked in that system, it’s horrible. Trust me, it may look cool on paper, you don’t want that malignant tumor. I have written a few detail posts on my experience in that system in HN. I will see if I can find them. Update: Here is one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155
sensanaty 2y ago
Oh no, god forbid the people doing the actual work get any benefits for doing so and that they have a voice for how they're being treated! No, the managerial class who do nothing but sap resources are for sure not the cancers.
- aborsy 2y ago
  Oh, this is wishful thinking about unions (enabling workers get fair compensation and benefits for the work that they do, etc). The reality of the unions can be quite different, and counterintuitive, especially as they evolve over time. I have written on my experience, see for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 I think Americans read its theory on paper and fantasize it. I don’t think they appreciate how it will look like in practice, 3 decades later.

by aborsy 2y ago

thinkcontext 2y ago

Union membership has been declining since the 60s. In 1983 membership was 20% in 2015 it was under 10%. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-united-states/ https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-u...

aborsy 2y ago
Factor 2 might be roughly the decline in the size of the manufacturing sector/GDP in that time frame. At least that’s a contributing factor. In other words, some of them were expensive and outsourced.

chasil 2y ago

The most important thing that unions do is raise safety standards. "Decreased unionization rates in the United States have been linked to an increase in occupational fatalities." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health "The Local Average Treatment Effect of a 1% decline in unionisation attributable to RTW is about a 5% increase in the rate of occupational fatalities. In total, RTW laws have led to a 14.2% increase in occupational mortality through decreased unionisation." https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736 https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
A union worker forgot bolts on the door plug on the Alaska plane, and workers from the other union (SPEEA) designed MCAS, which was one of the causes of the two 737 Max crashes.
- defrost 2y ago
  So? These were procedural errors - the company cut back on previously enforced protocols to check and double check work. In general unions are pro health and safety procedures and have no objection to work quality procedural checks either. It's the cost cutting culture imported from the non-Boeing crowd imported post merger that is at fault here. You're simply having a cheap shot at unions here rather than making any observation of depth.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    > In general unions are pro health and safety procedures Management and non union workers at Boeing would make the same claim. > You're simply having a cheap shot at unions here rather than making any observation of depth. I could be wrong. The part we do have evidence about is who did the work - it’s the union workers. It seems to me like some think the people doing the problematic work somehow don’t share in accountability at all. I think it is unlikely that only management or executives or the “company” or whoever is solely at fault.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

My recollection is that some European countries have better union laws where competition between unions is allowed rather than giving each union a legally protected monopoly where others cannot work. The lack of competition makes American unions especially bad and leads to corrupt union leaders or unnecessarily hostile relationships with their company. But it doesn’t have to be that way. There might be better balanced approaches.

aborsy 2y ago
Yes, unions in Germany are more decentralized and less malign. In France, unions are nationwide, and the same across the entire sectors. Having worked in that system, it’s horrible. Trust me, it may look cool on paper, you don’t want that malignant tumor. I have written a few detail posts on my experience in that system in HN. I will see if I can find them. Update: Here is one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155

sensanaty 2y ago

Oh no, god forbid the people doing the actual work get any benefits for doing so and that they have a voice for how they're being treated! No, the managerial class who do nothing but sap resources are for sure not the cancers.

aborsy 2y ago
Oh, this is wishful thinking about unions (enabling workers get fair compensation and benefits for the work that they do, etc). The reality of the unions can be quite different, and counterintuitive, especially as they evolve over time. I have written on my experience, see for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26598155 I think Americans read its theory on paper and fantasize it. I don’t think they appreciate how it will look like in practice, 3 decades later.