7 ms·

Boeing, Union reach wage deal to end strike

43 points by hhs 2y ago

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
The original offer was a 25% raise over 4 years. Then Boeing offered 30% and went to the public with it. And now this deal is at 35%. The union originally asked for 40%. I know there are a lot of other details mixed up in here around bonuses and retirement benefits and job security and so on. But does this mean the union “won” this process since the number is close to what they wanted? The one big thing it looks like they aren’t getting that the original deal had is that the next model won’t be guaranteed to be built in Washington. Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? Presumably they lost one month of pay. And a lot of other (non union) people are getting laid off, who probably view the union as a bad actor. Also those tired of the union work culture in Everett may continue to leave, continuing a drain of the best talent. Boeing probably is in a more precarious position than ever before. They will likely stick to the smaller plane lineup and diversify manufacturing away from Washington and automate more. So is this really good for the union or is it just really good for the workers who are there now, since they will get the most of what they could get out of the company before they retire? To them it may not matter what the future of Boeing is past their retirement. Union X post: https://x.com/IAM751/status/1847641501637247081 https://x.com/IAM751/status/1847641501637247081 Deeper details of deal: http://www.iam751.org/2024StrikeProposal/ http://www.iam751.org/2024StrikeProposal/
- fn-mote 2y ago
  This kind-of-anti-union post would be a lot more interesting if it attempted to answer the questions it raises with facts instead of speculative “maybes”. As far as I’m concerned, higher compensation is a long term win. If new hires are offered less, they will know they are being taken advantage of.
  - hedora 2y ago
    Higher comp is not a win if it comes with enough strings attached. For instance, they could tie pay / layoffs to seniority (all your coworkers are unfireable incompetent union “good old boys” that don’t bother pretending to work any more, creating a hostile workplace and tanking company revenue), or the contract could make it unprofitable or infeasible to continue ramping up production in the union controlled facilities. Since Boeing managed to remove the clause saying they’ll keep making planes in Washington, I’m guessing the latter happened with this deal.
    - torlok 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - PlattypusRex 2y ago
      The "good old boys" stereotype is a stereotype for a reason: it doesn't actually happen in meaningful numbers. If you get paid well, have good benefits, and can't get fired arbitrarily (union still allows for firing based on performance), it turns out your workers will be happier and more productive. Also, if labor costs (paying a decent wage) tank a massive jet company, they already had many other problems under the hood. Your argument is also proven to be false, because Airbus (heavily unionized) has been eating Boeing's lunch for years since they didn't greedily spin-off everything nor slacked on quality control for the shareholders for short-term gain.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    [flagged]
- treyd 2y ago
  > Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? Presumably they lost one month of pay. It depends on the details of the contract but often the company has to pay the workers for wages lost while on strike unless they went and got a temporary job during the strike. It makes the bargaining eaiser because the company has more of an incentive to bargain in good faith since it's harder for them to "just wait it out". But on the latter points, Boeing is a strategically important industrial company. The federal government has an incentive to ensure their long term stability, or at least the appearance of it.
- batmaniam 2y ago
  > Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? What's the alternative? Wait forever for Boeing to give workers a decent raise, which absolutely will NOT happen? Workers just got a big pay raise by demanding for it. But yes, you're right that Union leadership is also spineless. Modern union leaders tend to appease the big bosses by giving in to what they want, trying to convince workers that the lower offers is the best they can get, and then trying to get the workers to vote for it. Stronger leadership would have rejected it because they know that workers are the soul of a company: without workers there is no company.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Among a certain people, the executive class is nearly worshipped as the good guys. God for forbid they get held accountable for anything not related to shareholders
  - Wytwwww 2y ago
    > without workers there is no company. Is they gradually move production to non-union factories in other states then there would be a company but no [union] workers...
    - sfifs 2y ago
      Boeing already tried doing this. Several big Customers rejected deliveries from the non union plant because they were unacceptably poorer in quality.
      - Wytwwww 2y ago
        I'd guess that has more to do with the incompetence of Boeing's management than with some inherent properties of union workers. Presumably they could fix that.
- hedora 2y ago
  It’s probably worth asking if the deal was good for the union leadership’s personal finances and/or political ambitions. If you look at the University of California contract negotiations (different union), you’re likely to conclude that the campus and most employees are on one side, and union leadership is on the other side.
- sbierwagen 2y ago
  >Presumably they lost one month of pay. A new grade 4 hourly worker at Boeing made $19 an hour before the strike. $3,040 a month before taxes. https://www.iam751.org/docs/2024/FRONTMar24.pdf https://www.iam751.org/docs/2024/FRONTMar24.pdf There's a reason they went on strike. $36,480 a year doesn't go far when you have to pay Seattle area rent.
  - buildsjets 2y ago
    The Harbor Freight Tools store 2 exits from the plant has a sign saying that they are hiring cashiers at $22.50/hr. No exaggeration, sign is in the window, Edmonds WA location.
    - lokar 2y ago
      Benefits?
      - buildsjets 2y ago
        Sold out 2 contracts ago in return for a clause guaranteeing work placement in Washington state, which Boeing promptly moved to South Carolina as soon as the contract expired.
    - metaphor 2y ago
      So what's stopping them from jumping ship to supposed greener pastures in Edmonds[1][2]? That a IAM union machinist would even consider a voluntary career pivot to the retail antithesis of "Buy Union-Made & American-Made products" because of a window sign says a lot...no exaggeration necessary. [1] https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harbor-freight-tools-jobs-retail-sales-associate-50464583 https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harb... [2] https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harbor-freight-tools-jobs-retail-stocking-associate-49798608 https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harb...
      - buildsjets 2y ago
- Moto7451 2y ago
  Being offered the next airplane is a bit of a red herring since the non union South Carolina plant has a track record of bad deliveries and some sales contracts forbid aircraft being delivered that are built there amongst larger quality issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_South_Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_South_Carolina So yes this is a win for them. Being paid properly for your time is likely an issue everyone here agrees with when it’s their pay on the line. Boeing has huge contracts and is the go to for the US Military Industrial Complex. They have plenty of contracts on hand to bring in revenue as they figure themselves out. Their ability to create problems has been clearly shown to be a tone at the top problem combined with bad management decisions that has lead to poor product delivery, regulatory missteps, and the design shortcuts that lead to accidents that brought on their most recent cycle of pain. A lathe operator has no impact on those decisions whether she is paid $20 or $27 per hour.
  - terribleperson 2y ago
    Being told that customers won't buy your airplanes unless you build them in your union shop must sting for management there.
- Sakos 2y ago
  One month of pay vs years of stagnant wages, concessions in regards to health care, as well as pensions getting axed. https://fortune.com/2024/09/13/boeing-machinists-vote-strike-95-reject-contract-25-pay-increase/ https://fortune.com/2024/09/13/boeing-machinists-vote-strike... Hmmm. I wonder if you have a bias here. > Also those tired of the union work culture in Everett may continue to leave Yeah, they won't leave for not getting salary increases in line with inflation (at the very least) in 16 years, but they will leave because the union is fighting for their benefit. What are you on? It's appalling how people will justify poor treatment of workers and argue against workers fighting for better treatment and pay.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > To them it may not matter what the future of Boeing is past their retirement. of course they don't, and why should they? Boeing doesn't give a f*k about its employees > probably view the union as a bad actor based on what? rather they seen the benefits of unionizing as otherwise you get nothing (and get laid off); this sounds like FUD
- mannyv 2y ago
  What's amusing is the union negotiated the last contract, which was rejected by membership. So maybe the union should reject that contract too just to see if they can get a better deal.
- feedforward 2y ago
  It's great that the subcontractors and executives and day traders who own the stock for a few seconds care so much about "what the future of Boeing is past their retirement".
- throwaway19972 2y ago
  Yes. This is absolutely a win.
- black_13 2y ago
  [dead]
- lokar 2y ago
  It must be lonely being the only person in the world defending Boeing management
  - speed_spread 2y ago
    I bet you could buy as the friends you wanted.
- dgrin91 2y ago
  I didn't know about this situation, but I know in some strike situations there is a backpay or signing bonus that is negotiated
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]
cyost 2y ago
Article title jumps the gun. Union members still need to vote on whether to accept the deal Wednesday. > The union announced the deal Saturday morning, saying, “it warrants presenting to the members and is worthy of your consideration.” > The union plans to vote on the deal on Wednesday. Nearly 95% of workers voted to reject the last tentative deal, which the union’s leaders recommended.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  I hope the workers reject and continue the strike, forcing Boeing into bankruptcy will be a very good thing for the country even if it leaves investors and banks unhappy.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    How is forcing one of its largest employers, one of its largest manufacturers, and leaving the commercial airliner market dominated by foreign companies good for the country?
    - interactivecode 2y ago
      Free market, it will open up a lot of opportunities for new companies
      - chasil 2y ago
        It is incredibly expensive to develop large airliners. As I understand it, the only peer companies that do so are Airbus, COMAC, and Embraer (Edit: Bombardier ended with the A220). Which one of these should replace Boeing?
        loeg 2y ago
        There is also Bombardier. But none except Airbus makes planes in the same class as Boeing.
chasil 2y ago
https://archive.ph/Vhukd https://archive.ph/Vhukd
aborsy 2y ago
I don’t know the situation with Boeing. But unions are sort of cancers of economy, which will grow and rotten healthy institutions. Their demands will grow indefinitely, as they become more and more powerful. At some point, there is no way back. Look at their outcomes in France! The problems seem to be increasingly spreading to US.
- thinkcontext 2y ago
  Union membership has been declining since the 60s. In 1983 membership was 20% in 2015 it was under 10%. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-united-states/ https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-u...
  - aborsy 2y ago
    Factor 2 might be roughly the decline in the size of the manufacturing sector/GDP in that time frame. At least that’s a contributing factor. In other words, some of them were expensive and outsourced.
- chasil 2y ago
  The most important thing that unions do is raise safety standards. "Decreased unionization rates in the United States have been linked to an increase in occupational fatalities." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health "The Local Average Treatment Effect of a 1% decline in unionisation attributable to RTW is about a 5% increase in the rate of occupational fatalities. In total, RTW laws have led to a 14.2% increase in occupational mortality through decreased unionisation." https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736 https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    A union worker forgot bolts on the door plug on the Alaska plane, and workers from the other union (SPEEA) designed MCAS, which was one of the causes of the two 737 Max crashes.
bloqs 2y ago
They haven't reached a deal. This article is bought by boeing interests to try to force the narrative. I can't believe I am typing this
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  You’re right, it still has to go to vote. But union representatives in the negotiating position have approved of the deal. On the other hand they approved of the initial Boeing offer that got nearly universally rejected. So who knows what will happen. I suspect this vote will not be nearly as skewed.

43 points by hhs 2y ago

The original offer was a 25% raise over 4 years. Then Boeing offered 30% and went to the public with it. And now this deal is at 35%. The union originally asked for 40%. I know there are a lot of other details mixed up in here around bonuses and retirement benefits and job security and so on. But does this mean the union “won” this process since the number is close to what they wanted? The one big thing it looks like they aren’t getting that the original deal had is that the next model won’t be guaranteed to be built in Washington. Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? Presumably they lost one month of pay. And a lot of other (non union) people are getting laid off, who probably view the union as a bad actor. Also those tired of the union work culture in Everett may continue to leave, continuing a drain of the best talent. Boeing probably is in a more precarious position than ever before. They will likely stick to the smaller plane lineup and diversify manufacturing away from Washington and automate more. So is this really good for the union or is it just really good for the workers who are there now, since they will get the most of what they could get out of the company before they retire? To them it may not matter what the future of Boeing is past their retirement. Union X post: https://x.com/IAM751/status/1847641501637247081 https://x.com/IAM751/status/1847641501637247081 Deeper details of deal: http://www.iam751.org/2024StrikeProposal/ http://www.iam751.org/2024StrikeProposal/

fn-mote 2y ago
This kind-of-anti-union post would be a lot more interesting if it attempted to answer the questions it raises with facts instead of speculative “maybes”. As far as I’m concerned, higher compensation is a long term win. If new hires are offered less, they will know they are being taken advantage of.
- hedora 2y ago
  Higher comp is not a win if it comes with enough strings attached. For instance, they could tie pay / layoffs to seniority (all your coworkers are unfireable incompetent union “good old boys” that don’t bother pretending to work any more, creating a hostile workplace and tanking company revenue), or the contract could make it unprofitable or infeasible to continue ramping up production in the union controlled facilities. Since Boeing managed to remove the clause saying they’ll keep making planes in Washington, I’m guessing the latter happened with this deal.
  - torlok 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - PlattypusRex 2y ago
    The "good old boys" stereotype is a stereotype for a reason: it doesn't actually happen in meaningful numbers. If you get paid well, have good benefits, and can't get fired arbitrarily (union still allows for firing based on performance), it turns out your workers will be happier and more productive. Also, if labor costs (paying a decent wage) tank a massive jet company, they already had many other problems under the hood. Your argument is also proven to be false, because Airbus (heavily unionized) has been eating Boeing's lunch for years since they didn't greedily spin-off everything nor slacked on quality control for the shareholders for short-term gain.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  [flagged]
treyd 2y ago
> Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? Presumably they lost one month of pay. It depends on the details of the contract but often the company has to pay the workers for wages lost while on strike unless they went and got a temporary job during the strike. It makes the bargaining eaiser because the company has more of an incentive to bargain in good faith since it's harder for them to "just wait it out". But on the latter points, Boeing is a strategically important industrial company. The federal government has an incentive to ensure their long term stability, or at least the appearance of it.
batmaniam 2y ago
> Also, is it actually good for the union workers in the bigger picture? What's the alternative? Wait forever for Boeing to give workers a decent raise, which absolutely will NOT happen? Workers just got a big pay raise by demanding for it. But yes, you're right that Union leadership is also spineless. Modern union leaders tend to appease the big bosses by giving in to what they want, trying to convince workers that the lower offers is the best they can get, and then trying to get the workers to vote for it. Stronger leadership would have rejected it because they know that workers are the soul of a company: without workers there is no company.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  Among a certain people, the executive class is nearly worshipped as the good guys. God for forbid they get held accountable for anything not related to shareholders
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  > without workers there is no company. Is they gradually move production to non-union factories in other states then there would be a company but no [union] workers...
  - sfifs 2y ago
    Boeing already tried doing this. Several big Customers rejected deliveries from the non union plant because they were unacceptably poorer in quality.
    - Wytwwww 2y ago
      I'd guess that has more to do with the incompetence of Boeing's management than with some inherent properties of union workers. Presumably they could fix that.
hedora 2y ago
It’s probably worth asking if the deal was good for the union leadership’s personal finances and/or political ambitions. If you look at the University of California contract negotiations (different union), you’re likely to conclude that the campus and most employees are on one side, and union leadership is on the other side.
sbierwagen 2y ago
>Presumably they lost one month of pay. A new grade 4 hourly worker at Boeing made $19 an hour before the strike. $3,040 a month before taxes. https://www.iam751.org/docs/2024/FRONTMar24.pdf https://www.iam751.org/docs/2024/FRONTMar24.pdf There's a reason they went on strike. $36,480 a year doesn't go far when you have to pay Seattle area rent.
- buildsjets 2y ago
  The Harbor Freight Tools store 2 exits from the plant has a sign saying that they are hiring cashiers at $22.50/hr. No exaggeration, sign is in the window, Edmonds WA location.
  - lokar 2y ago
    Benefits?
    - buildsjets 2y ago
      Sold out 2 contracts ago in return for a clause guaranteeing work placement in Washington state, which Boeing promptly moved to South Carolina as soon as the contract expired.
  - metaphor 2y ago
    So what's stopping them from jumping ship to supposed greener pastures in Edmonds[1][2]? That a IAM union machinist would even consider a voluntary career pivot to the retail antithesis of "Buy Union-Made & American-Made products" because of a window sign says a lot...no exaggeration necessary. [1] https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harbor-freight-tools-jobs-retail-sales-associate-50464583 https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harb... [2] https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harbor-freight-tools-jobs-retail-stocking-associate-49798608 https://harbor-freight-tools.careerarc.com/job-listings/harb...
    - buildsjets 2y ago
Moto7451 2y ago
Being offered the next airplane is a bit of a red herring since the non union South Carolina plant has a track record of bad deliveries and some sales contracts forbid aircraft being delivered that are built there amongst larger quality issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_South_Carolina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_South_Carolina So yes this is a win for them. Being paid properly for your time is likely an issue everyone here agrees with when it’s their pay on the line. Boeing has huge contracts and is the go to for the US Military Industrial Complex. They have plenty of contracts on hand to bring in revenue as they figure themselves out. Their ability to create problems has been clearly shown to be a tone at the top problem combined with bad management decisions that has lead to poor product delivery, regulatory missteps, and the design shortcuts that lead to accidents that brought on their most recent cycle of pain. A lathe operator has no impact on those decisions whether she is paid $20 or $27 per hour.
- terribleperson 2y ago
  Being told that customers won't buy your airplanes unless you build them in your union shop must sting for management there.
Sakos 2y ago
One month of pay vs years of stagnant wages, concessions in regards to health care, as well as pensions getting axed. https://fortune.com/2024/09/13/boeing-machinists-vote-strike-95-reject-contract-25-pay-increase/ https://fortune.com/2024/09/13/boeing-machinists-vote-strike... Hmmm. I wonder if you have a bias here. > Also those tired of the union work culture in Everett may continue to leave Yeah, they won't leave for not getting salary increases in line with inflation (at the very least) in 16 years, but they will leave because the union is fighting for their benefit. What are you on? It's appalling how people will justify poor treatment of workers and argue against workers fighting for better treatment and pay.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> To them it may not matter what the future of Boeing is past their retirement. of course they don't, and why should they? Boeing doesn't give a f*k about its employees > probably view the union as a bad actor based on what? rather they seen the benefits of unionizing as otherwise you get nothing (and get laid off); this sounds like FUD
mannyv 2y ago
What's amusing is the union negotiated the last contract, which was rejected by membership. So maybe the union should reject that contract too just to see if they can get a better deal.
feedforward 2y ago
It's great that the subcontractors and executives and day traders who own the stock for a few seconds care so much about "what the future of Boeing is past their retirement".
throwaway19972 2y ago
Yes. This is absolutely a win.
black_13 2y ago
[dead]
lokar 2y ago
It must be lonely being the only person in the world defending Boeing management
- speed_spread 2y ago
  I bet you could buy as the friends you wanted.
dgrin91 2y ago
I didn't know about this situation, but I know in some strike situations there is a backpay or signing bonus that is negotiated

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

oldpersonintx 2y ago

[dead]

cyost 2y ago

Article title jumps the gun. Union members still need to vote on whether to accept the deal Wednesday. > The union announced the deal Saturday morning, saying, “it warrants presenting to the members and is worthy of your consideration.” > The union plans to vote on the deal on Wednesday. Nearly 95% of workers voted to reject the last tentative deal, which the union’s leaders recommended.

Dalewyn 2y ago
I hope the workers reject and continue the strike, forcing Boeing into bankruptcy will be a very good thing for the country even if it leaves investors and banks unhappy.
- Arainach 2y ago
  How is forcing one of its largest employers, one of its largest manufacturers, and leaving the commercial airliner market dominated by foreign companies good for the country?
  - interactivecode 2y ago
    Free market, it will open up a lot of opportunities for new companies
    - chasil 2y ago
      It is incredibly expensive to develop large airliners. As I understand it, the only peer companies that do so are Airbus, COMAC, and Embraer (Edit: Bombardier ended with the A220). Which one of these should replace Boeing?
      - loeg 2y ago
        There is also Bombardier. But none except Airbus makes planes in the same class as Boeing.

chasil 2y ago

https://archive.ph/Vhukd https://archive.ph/Vhukd

aborsy 2y ago

I don’t know the situation with Boeing. But unions are sort of cancers of economy, which will grow and rotten healthy institutions. Their demands will grow indefinitely, as they become more and more powerful. At some point, there is no way back. Look at their outcomes in France! The problems seem to be increasingly spreading to US.

thinkcontext 2y ago
Union membership has been declining since the 60s. In 1983 membership was 20% in 2015 it was under 10%. https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-united-states/ https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2016/union-membership-in-the-u...
- aborsy 2y ago
  Factor 2 might be roughly the decline in the size of the manufacturing sector/GDP in that time frame. At least that’s a contributing factor. In other words, some of them were expensive and outsourced.
chasil 2y ago
The most important thing that unions do is raise safety standards. "Decreased unionization rates in the United States have been linked to an increase in occupational fatalities." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union#Health "The Local Average Treatment Effect of a 1% decline in unionisation attributable to RTW is about a 5% increase in the rate of occupational fatalities. In total, RTW laws have led to a 14.2% increase in occupational mortality through decreased unionisation." https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736 https://oem.bmj.com/content/75/10/736
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  A union worker forgot bolts on the door plug on the Alaska plane, and workers from the other union (SPEEA) designed MCAS, which was one of the causes of the two 737 Max crashes.

bloqs 2y ago

They haven't reached a deal. This article is bought by boeing interests to try to force the narrative. I can't believe I am typing this

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
You’re right, it still has to go to vote. But union representatives in the negotiating position have approved of the deal. On the other hand they approved of the initial Boeing offer that got nearly universally rejected. So who knows what will happen. I suspect this vote will not be nearly as skewed.