4 ms·

People should stop developing for these closed gardens and just make websites if need be.

by beretguy 2y ago

oidar 2y ago
a lot of software needs to work offline.
- miah_ 2y ago
  Software has historically been offline first. This is not a issue.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  Websites can trivially work offline with service workers.
  - DougN7 2y ago
    Honest question: is there a way to receive the equivalent of app notifications on a mobile app from a website? It would need to be more than just a text message such that clicking the message opens the “app” to a specific place regarding the alert (and automatically handling login).
    - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
      Yes. https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-notification-behaviour https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-notification-beh...
      - DougN7 2y ago
        This doesn’t seem like it would work if the mobile browser was closed, phone was locked, etc. Am I wrong? I’d like to get away from apps but this doesn’t seem like a complete solution.
        jauntywundrkind 2y ago
        Nope it works fine on mobile! Android can spin up apps if notifications come in & will spin up Chrome which will spin up your service-worker! I have my qualms with Android but this seems well designed! https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-faq#why_doesnt_push_work_when_the_browser_is_closed https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-faq#why_doesnt_p... Desktop OSes don't have anything parallel, so yeah, you need the browser running. But nothing has to be on screen.
        DougN7 2y ago
        Do you know if iOS has similar support?
        jauntywundrkind 2y ago
        Yes, push notifications don't require Safari to be open already on iOS.
wiredfool 2y ago
And if you’re in Germany, that website needs to have an imprint with similar details.
- beretguy 2y ago
  > imprint with similar details What does that mean?
  - wiredfool 2y ago
    It means that if you publish a website in Germany, you need to have your real name and address on the site, or some enterprising lawyer will probably sue you.
    - beretguy 2y ago
      OK. Then write websites instead of apps, unless you are in Germany. If you are in Germany go ahead and develop apps for proprietary storefronts.
TiredOfLife 2y ago
At least in Germany even websites need to list address and phone.
rdsnsca 2y ago
This is an EU law.... a quote from the artice "EU trader requirement in the European Union is now being enforced"
- beretguy 2y ago
  Sure. What are you trying to say?
whitehexagon 2y ago
Yeah I took that decision a while back; mostly when 64bit was being forced upon us, the multitude of new screen sizes, and the 'support this new tech or we wont approve your app' attitude. I am so very glad to be out of those walled gardens. And every story since has only reaffirmed my decision, especially this latest news. It would be nice to turn the tables and have some of these giant companies disclose their entire complicated tax avoidance structures to public scrutiny. Anyway I quit smart phones a year back, and would ask fellows developers to still consider working on 'normal' websites before the world is totally controlled by these closed garden ecosystems.
divan 2y ago
Until wasm fully kicks in in browsers, websites – or, more precisely, web apps - are just dev environment built on top one of the ill-suited tech stack for UI apps. It's very limiting and provides one of the most frustrating dev experiences. A lot of developers prefer not to work with web simply because dev-experience is one of the worst, despite the sheer number of hacks on top of hacks built to hide the fundamental flaws of this UI stack.
- beretguy 2y ago
  No idea what you are talking about.
  - divan 2y ago
    That's okay. I'm talking about the fact that web-stack is built on top typesetting engine (HTML) developed in 80-s for completely different task. Same for hackish scripting solution developed in two weeks and called Mocha (later renamed into Javascript), and an ad-hoc solution for styling HTML called CSS. These three pillars of web stack were never meant or designed to be used for UI prgramming and user-facing apps development. And also about the fact that if anyone wants to offer their app on the web, they have literally no choice but to write software using that stack. Many times the choice between "use web-stack" and "use proper UI framework" boils down to acceptability of slower and more painful distribution process. With web apps there is virtually no distribution process – users download app every time they want to use (because, of course, it makes sense, right?). But with other solutions, there is some sort of distribution process – like Apple/Google App Store or app repositories. Which makes app distribution more secure and efficient, but adds some pain to the process. If you want to reach as many users as possible, you need web, and that's how we all got locked in into writing apps using typesetting engine and pretending that it's okay.
    - xigoi 2y ago
      > And also about the fact that if anyone wants to offer their app on the web, they have literally no choice but to write software using that stack. If you want to offer your app on Android, you have literally no choice but to use Android Studio. Is that really better? At least it’s possible to write HTML on an old computer without running out of RAM.
daedrdev 2y ago
This is a government regulation in the EU
- beretguy 2y ago
  Sure. What are you trying to say?
mysterydip 2y ago
Is it possible to have offline access to a website app? My main use case is developing for tablets and phones for offline use. It would simplify my life greatly if I could just direct people to a webpage.
- beretguy 2y ago
  There is offline-first CouchDB: https://couchdb.apache.org/ https://couchdb.apache.org/.

People should stop developing for these closed gardens and just make websites if need be.

oidar 2y ago

a lot of software needs to work offline.

miah_ 2y ago
Software has historically been offline first. This is not a issue.
robin_reala 2y ago
Websites can trivially work offline with service workers.
- DougN7 2y ago
  Honest question: is there a way to receive the equivalent of app notifications on a mobile app from a website? It would need to be more than just a text message such that clicking the message opens the “app” to a specific place regarding the alert (and automatically handling login).
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    Yes. https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-notification-behaviour https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-notification-beh...
    - DougN7 2y ago
      This doesn’t seem like it would work if the mobile browser was closed, phone was locked, etc. Am I wrong? I’d like to get away from apps but this doesn’t seem like a complete solution.
      - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
        Nope it works fine on mobile! Android can spin up apps if notifications come in & will spin up Chrome which will spin up your service-worker! I have my qualms with Android but this seems well designed! https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-faq#why_doesnt_push_work_when_the_browser_is_closed https://web.dev/articles/push-notifications-faq#why_doesnt_p... Desktop OSes don't have anything parallel, so yeah, you need the browser running. But nothing has to be on screen.
        DougN7 2y ago
        Do you know if iOS has similar support?
        jauntywundrkind 2y ago
        Yes, push notifications don't require Safari to be open already on iOS.

wiredfool 2y ago

And if you’re in Germany, that website needs to have an imprint with similar details.

beretguy 2y ago
> imprint with similar details What does that mean?
- wiredfool 2y ago
  It means that if you publish a website in Germany, you need to have your real name and address on the site, or some enterprising lawyer will probably sue you.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    OK. Then write websites instead of apps, unless you are in Germany. If you are in Germany go ahead and develop apps for proprietary storefronts.

TiredOfLife 2y ago

At least in Germany even websites need to list address and phone.

rdsnsca 2y ago

This is an EU law.... a quote from the artice "EU trader requirement in the European Union is now being enforced"

beretguy 2y ago
Sure. What are you trying to say?

whitehexagon 2y ago

Yeah I took that decision a while back; mostly when 64bit was being forced upon us, the multitude of new screen sizes, and the 'support this new tech or we wont approve your app' attitude. I am so very glad to be out of those walled gardens. And every story since has only reaffirmed my decision, especially this latest news. It would be nice to turn the tables and have some of these giant companies disclose their entire complicated tax avoidance structures to public scrutiny. Anyway I quit smart phones a year back, and would ask fellows developers to still consider working on 'normal' websites before the world is totally controlled by these closed garden ecosystems.

divan 2y ago

Until wasm fully kicks in in browsers, websites – or, more precisely, web apps - are just dev environment built on top one of the ill-suited tech stack for UI apps. It's very limiting and provides one of the most frustrating dev experiences. A lot of developers prefer not to work with web simply because dev-experience is one of the worst, despite the sheer number of hacks on top of hacks built to hide the fundamental flaws of this UI stack.

beretguy 2y ago
No idea what you are talking about.
- divan 2y ago
  That's okay. I'm talking about the fact that web-stack is built on top typesetting engine (HTML) developed in 80-s for completely different task. Same for hackish scripting solution developed in two weeks and called Mocha (later renamed into Javascript), and an ad-hoc solution for styling HTML called CSS. These three pillars of web stack were never meant or designed to be used for UI prgramming and user-facing apps development. And also about the fact that if anyone wants to offer their app on the web, they have literally no choice but to write software using that stack. Many times the choice between "use web-stack" and "use proper UI framework" boils down to acceptability of slower and more painful distribution process. With web apps there is virtually no distribution process – users download app every time they want to use (because, of course, it makes sense, right?). But with other solutions, there is some sort of distribution process – like Apple/Google App Store or app repositories. Which makes app distribution more secure and efficient, but adds some pain to the process. If you want to reach as many users as possible, you need web, and that's how we all got locked in into writing apps using typesetting engine and pretending that it's okay.
  - xigoi 2y ago
    > And also about the fact that if anyone wants to offer their app on the web, they have literally no choice but to write software using that stack. If you want to offer your app on Android, you have literally no choice but to use Android Studio. Is that really better? At least it’s possible to write HTML on an old computer without running out of RAM.

daedrdev 2y ago

This is a government regulation in the EU

beretguy 2y ago
Sure. What are you trying to say?

mysterydip 2y ago

Is it possible to have offline access to a website app? My main use case is developing for tablets and phones for offline use. It would simplify my life greatly if I could just direct people to a webpage.

beretguy 2y ago
There is offline-first CouchDB: https://couchdb.apache.org/ https://couchdb.apache.org/.