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I disagree. While the situation in Israel differs from that in the West Bank, there are still significant elements of systemic discrimination against Arab citi

I disagree. While the situation in Israel differs from that in the West Bank, there are still significant elements of systemic discrimination against Arab citizens. The 2018 Nation-State Law is a prime example, as it: 1. Removedd Arabic as an offical language 2. Defined Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people exclusively 3. Declared Jewish settlements a national value This law effectively codified the second-class status of Arab citizens, who make up about 20% of Israel's population. Additionally, Arab Israelis face ongoing disparities in areas such as education, employment, and housing. They are underrepresented in government and leadership positions. While Arab citizens have legal rights on paper, the reality is a system of de facto segregation and institutional discrimination. The Nation-State Law and other policies create a two-tiered system that privileges Jewish citizens over Arab citizens, meeting key criteria of apartheid even within Israel proper. [1] What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citize... [2] Israel's controversial new “Jewish nation-state” law, explained | Vox https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-n... [3] Israel: New Laws Marginalize Palestinian Arab Citizens https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginalize-palestinian-arab-citizens https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/03/30/israel-new-laws-marginal... [4] The argument that Israel practices apartheid, explained https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-mean... [5] Israel - Minority Rights Group https://minorityrights.org/country/israel/ https://minorityrights.org/country/israel/ [6] Q&A: Israel's Apartheid against Palestinians: Cruel System of ... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-of-domination-and-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israel...

fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
Show me a country that doesn't have systemic discrimination of minority groups. At the end of the day it's quite clear why jewish people want a jewish country, so yes, some discrimination around immigration will always be "built-in" into israel. Now do I think israel is trending in the wrong direction? 100% yes. Do I wish for a two state solution and achieving as equal rights as possible while maintaining the status of israel as a jewish state? also 100% yes. Do I think that calling israel proper an apartheid is just leading to people on both sides to become even more extreme? also yes.
- submeta 2y ago
  We could have had a one state solution. One country for all. Christians, muslims, jews. That would have been just.
  - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
    Could a one state solution work sometime deep into the future? Perhaps, but the only way to achieve a stable and prosperous one state solution is by first having a two state solution with decades of peace, rebuilding of trust and a return to a more secular direction from both sides. If you'd try to force a one state solution in the near/medium term you'd just end up with another divided failed state similar to lebanon (and probably much worse), the population would just be too divided on basically every subject, with militant/religious extremists on both sides making the keg especially explosive. So ask yourself what is better for the people, trying to achieve some ideal for the sake of that ideal or actually trying to achieve something that could work? If this were an engineering project, would you do a full refactor with an extremely high chance of failure or go through an intermediate step that would bring a lot of the benefits with a much higher chance of success?
underdeserver 2y ago
Your comment is complicated in and of itself, even without the enormous historical, legal-theoretic and political context surrounding that law and its enactment.
- submeta 2y ago
  Constantly framing it as „complicated“ does not make it so. It was populated land, home to muslims, Christians, jews. One state for all. Until Zionism started colonising Palestine. And expelled Christians and muslims. First Zionists called their conferences „Colonising Palestine“. Nothing complicated.
  - underdeserver 2y ago
    Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria. You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.
    - submeta 2y ago
      Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority homeland in an area that was populated, so they expelled many people from their homes in Palestine. And that led to first Nakba. Today we witness the second Nakba. The most detailed documentation of a Genocide. Btw: „God‘s chosen people, God‘s promised land, nation state law, jewish majority“. Sounds very racist to me. - If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it is propably a duck?
      - underdeserver 2y ago

fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago

Show me a country that doesn't have systemic discrimination of minority groups. At the end of the day it's quite clear why jewish people want a jewish country, so yes, some discrimination around immigration will always be "built-in" into israel. Now do I think israel is trending in the wrong direction? 100% yes. Do I wish for a two state solution and achieving as equal rights as possible while maintaining the status of israel as a jewish state? also 100% yes. Do I think that calling israel proper an apartheid is just leading to people on both sides to become even more extreme? also yes.

submeta 2y ago
We could have had a one state solution. One country for all. Christians, muslims, jews. That would have been just.
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
  Could a one state solution work sometime deep into the future? Perhaps, but the only way to achieve a stable and prosperous one state solution is by first having a two state solution with decades of peace, rebuilding of trust and a return to a more secular direction from both sides. If you'd try to force a one state solution in the near/medium term you'd just end up with another divided failed state similar to lebanon (and probably much worse), the population would just be too divided on basically every subject, with militant/religious extremists on both sides making the keg especially explosive. So ask yourself what is better for the people, trying to achieve some ideal for the sake of that ideal or actually trying to achieve something that could work? If this were an engineering project, would you do a full refactor with an extremely high chance of failure or go through an intermediate step that would bring a lot of the benefits with a much higher chance of success?

underdeserver 2y ago

Your comment is complicated in and of itself, even without the enormous historical, legal-theoretic and political context surrounding that law and its enactment.

submeta 2y ago
Constantly framing it as „complicated“ does not make it so. It was populated land, home to muslims, Christians, jews. One state for all. Until Zionism started colonising Palestine. And expelled Christians and muslims. First Zionists called their conferences „Colonising Palestine“. Nothing complicated.
- underdeserver 2y ago
  Constantly claiming it is not complicated does not make it so. It was populated land - before Greeks, Romans, Christians and Muslims conquered it and ethnically cleansed the Jews from the area. There wasn't one state - in what is Israel/Palestine today, until 1948, was at least Jordan, Egypt, British Palestine and Syria. You keep oversimplifying. It's just not simple.
  - submeta 2y ago
    Ahh, here we go again: „Thousands of years ago jewish people populated the area.“ And that’s how nations define their borders in modern days? Who said it was one state? I said it was populated land. People lived there for centuries. Mostly Christian and muslim arabs. Some jewish arabs. And then came a settler colonial ideology in 19th century, way before Holocaust, polish jews, created the idea for a jewish majority homeland in an area that was populated, so they expelled many people from their homes in Palestine. And that led to first Nakba. Today we witness the second Nakba. The most detailed documentation of a Genocide. Btw: „God‘s chosen people, God‘s promised land, nation state law, jewish majority“. Sounds very racist to me. - If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it is propably a duck?
    - underdeserver 2y ago