4 ms·

Boy, finally somebody who also hates a certain letter. I hate c - it’s totally garbage letter. Take for example Pacific Ocean. Every damn c in that two word is

by SvenL 2y ago

Boy, finally somebody who also hates a certain letter. I hate c - it’s totally garbage letter. Take for example Pacific Ocean. Every damn c in that two word is pronounced differently. Worst part, you could replace it with other letters (Pazifik Oshean). It’s redundant. C is just a nightmare…

suprjami 2y ago
I see.
adrian_b 2y ago
The redundancy comes in part from the oldest forms of the Latin alphabet, where there were 3 forms of C, K was used before A, C was used before E or I and Q was used before O or U. Later they have understood that writing with different letters minor variations in pronunciation of the same phoneme is useless, so they began to use C in almost all cases where previously either K or C or Q were used, but K and Q have survived for some niche uses. The next complication has arisen in the Middle Ages, when in many European languages the pronunciation of C before E and I has been changed and instead of being the same as K it has become like the pronunciation of either English "s" or English "sh" or English "ch" or English "ts". Because English has borrowed many words from a lot of languages, keeping their spelling, it has gathered all these pronunciations, so as you have pointed, all these different pronunciations are possible in English and it is unpredictable which of them must be used in a given word.
kalaksi 2y ago
In the same vein, as a non-native speaker, I sometimes find it funny when even words that are written the same way (or are very close) are pronounced differently. E.g. read vs. read. And then I also hear from movies that people pronounce "interesting" in different ways and begin to question how it should be done. Of course, my native tongue has it's own quirks and peculiarities. I guess languages are the ultimate legacy projects with massive amount of contributors :).
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
that got nothing to do with a specific letter it's just "ingliti" ... maybe you get the drift
SanjayMehta 2y ago
It’s a design problem in English. Learn Sanskrit. Use its script to write English. There’s a vocalist who can sing in any language. She rewrites the lyrics in Sanskrit and then has perfect pronunciation. Will update with a link when I find it.
- captn3m0 2y ago
  You don’t need Sanskrit. IPA probably works much better, as Sanskrit’s alphabet doesn’t represent everything.
  - SanjayMehta 2y ago
    I suggest you take a look at Sanskrit.
    - schoen 2y ago
      I just took a look at Sanskrit, and it doesn't represent everything. It has a larger consonant inventory than any other natural language that I've ever seen, which is impressive, but that doesn't make it phonologically universal. Some things that American English has that Sanskrit doesn't include /ð/, /θ/, [ɹ] as a realization of /r/, and contrastive /v/ and /w/ (like "vein", the body part, versus "wain", the old word for a wagon; or "vine", the plant, and "wine", the beverage made from it). I'm unclear on the effects of the vowel gradations, so I don't know whether they approximate other languages' vowel inventories well. It also looks like Sanskrit doesn't have any uvular, pharyngeal, or glottal consonants, and no velar or post-velar fricatives. For example, I don't see that it could represent Hebrew חָכָם 'wise, smart' (pronounced /χa'χam/). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9D#Hebrew https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9D#Hebrew I could see that Sanskrit might have been the best single choice for transcribing a wide range of unrelated languages at some point in history, but now that we have IPA, we can make lots of distinctions that Sanskrit doesn't.
- SanjayMehta 2y ago
  Shreya Ghoshal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Shreya_Ghoshal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Shre...
hunter2_ 2y ago
I think most people say Pasific, not Pazifik. I can't think of an example where I would pronounce c like z. Your point stands, regardless.
- majewsky 2y ago
  Maybe he's just German? "Pazifik" is in fact the German word for this ocean, as a shorthand for the proper name "Pazifischer Ozean".
  - SvenL 2y ago
    Yes, you got me, I‘m German. German is even worse when it comes to the letter c. Chemie vs. Choreografie… and I know there are lunatics who pronounce it „Kemie“, but still. For non German speaker, both words start with „ch“, one is commonly pronounced softly like „shemie“ while the other one is pronounced like a „k“ - similar to the English choreography. Even in English „chemistry“ is pronounced similar with „k“.
ninkendo 2y ago
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. https://guidetogrammar.org/grammar/twain.htm https://guidetogrammar.org/grammar/twain.htm

by SvenL 2y ago

suprjami 2y ago

I see.

adrian_b 2y ago

The redundancy comes in part from the oldest forms of the Latin alphabet, where there were 3 forms of C, K was used before A, C was used before E or I and Q was used before O or U. Later they have understood that writing with different letters minor variations in pronunciation of the same phoneme is useless, so they began to use C in almost all cases where previously either K or C or Q were used, but K and Q have survived for some niche uses. The next complication has arisen in the Middle Ages, when in many European languages the pronunciation of C before E and I has been changed and instead of being the same as K it has become like the pronunciation of either English "s" or English "sh" or English "ch" or English "ts". Because English has borrowed many words from a lot of languages, keeping their spelling, it has gathered all these pronunciations, so as you have pointed, all these different pronunciations are possible in English and it is unpredictable which of them must be used in a given word.

kalaksi 2y ago

In the same vein, as a non-native speaker, I sometimes find it funny when even words that are written the same way (or are very close) are pronounced differently. E.g. read vs. read. And then I also hear from movies that people pronounce "interesting" in different ways and begin to question how it should be done. Of course, my native tongue has it's own quirks and peculiarities. I guess languages are the ultimate legacy projects with massive amount of contributors :).

2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago

that got nothing to do with a specific letter it's just "ingliti" ... maybe you get the drift

SanjayMehta 2y ago

It’s a design problem in English. Learn Sanskrit. Use its script to write English. There’s a vocalist who can sing in any language. She rewrites the lyrics in Sanskrit and then has perfect pronunciation. Will update with a link when I find it.

captn3m0 2y ago
You don’t need Sanskrit. IPA probably works much better, as Sanskrit’s alphabet doesn’t represent everything.
- SanjayMehta 2y ago
  I suggest you take a look at Sanskrit.
  - schoen 2y ago
    I just took a look at Sanskrit, and it doesn't represent everything. It has a larger consonant inventory than any other natural language that I've ever seen, which is impressive, but that doesn't make it phonologically universal. Some things that American English has that Sanskrit doesn't include /ð/, /θ/, [ɹ] as a realization of /r/, and contrastive /v/ and /w/ (like "vein", the body part, versus "wain", the old word for a wagon; or "vine", the plant, and "wine", the beverage made from it). I'm unclear on the effects of the vowel gradations, so I don't know whether they approximate other languages' vowel inventories well. It also looks like Sanskrit doesn't have any uvular, pharyngeal, or glottal consonants, and no velar or post-velar fricatives. For example, I don't see that it could represent Hebrew חָכָם 'wise, smart' (pronounced /χa'χam/). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9D#Hebrew https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9D#Hebrew I could see that Sanskrit might have been the best single choice for transcribing a wide range of unrelated languages at some point in history, but now that we have IPA, we can make lots of distinctions that Sanskrit doesn't.
SanjayMehta 2y ago
Shreya Ghoshal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Shreya_Ghoshal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_recorded_by_Shre...

hunter2_ 2y ago

I think most people say Pasific, not Pazifik. I can't think of an example where I would pronounce c like z. Your point stands, regardless.

majewsky 2y ago
Maybe he's just German? "Pazifik" is in fact the German word for this ocean, as a shorthand for the proper name "Pazifischer Ozean".
- SvenL 2y ago
  Yes, you got me, I‘m German. German is even worse when it comes to the letter c. Chemie vs. Choreografie… and I know there are lunatics who pronounce it „Kemie“, but still. For non German speaker, both words start with „ch“, one is commonly pronounced softly like „shemie“ while the other one is pronounced like a „k“ - similar to the English choreography. Even in English „chemistry“ is pronounced similar with „k“.

ninkendo 2y ago

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. https://guidetogrammar.org/grammar/twain.htm https://guidetogrammar.org/grammar/twain.htm