8 ms·
'They refused to let me go': Japanese turn to resignation agencies to quit jobs
- beretguy 2y agoWow. Totally the other way around from US.
- aucisson_masque 2y ago> Japan’s chronic labour shortage – a symptom of its low birthrate – has also made employers more determined to retain staff, even if it means intimidating them into staying Holy moly. Me dumb would think if there is labor shortage then employers would compete to offer the best wage, work ethics, working conditions, and so on. That's basically the 'hand of the free market', people will go where they have better condition. Those who retain staff through fear are in for a rough ride, you can't go against human nature even in society like Japan that emphasize abnegation so much. In other countries what they would do is push for more immigration so that they can remain in dominant position, but thankfully for the Japanese they don't have that issue. I bet that Japanese labors condition will drastically increase in the coming 10 years.
- karmakurtisaani 2y agoThis looks similar to labor shortage of nursing in other countries. Somehow paying more and increasing work conditions just isn't an option.
- StefanBatory 2y agoCase of Austria. Why do they have conscription? Because the alternative service is to work as an unpaid laborer in things like nursing and so on...
- zingar 2y agoCould you elaborate on this?
- ahartmetz 2y agoProbably similar to how it used to be in Germany. The many conscientious objectors to army service were doing useful work for very little money.
- StefanBatory 2y agoI think that Wikipedia article will explain this to you better than I could. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst_in_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst_in_Austria Also, referendum in 2013... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Austrian_conscription_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Austrian_conscription_ref... https://www.dw.com/en/austria-bucks-trend-with-conscription-vote/a-16538451 https://www.dw.com/en/austria-bucks-trend-with-conscription-... "Many voters were apparently swayed by warnings from health organizations and charities, which had said they would not be able to cope without the 14,000 young men who opt to carry out community service each year.One of them was Alfred Körbel, a 74-year-old from Vienna. "Civilian service is very important for our society," he told DW. "Organizations like the Red Cross and other health care providers would not be able to keep going without such support." There was a big generational gap in voting trends, with older people more likely to support conscription. Heidenkamp explains that there was "a blend of different motives" that led to the outcome in favor of conscription." In short, "we need to keep it as otherwise who would do that" instead of paying more :<
- alpaca128 2y agoIt's not unpaid. Payment is pretty low though, around 300 bucks per month. Also it's 50% longer than military and you're forbidden from using or owning a gun for 15 years because pacifism is the only accepted reason to opt out of military service.
- em-bee 2y agowhich also includes that you can not apply for a hunting license or join the police force.
- Ekaros 2y agoBecause it really is not. Health care in general is large cut for gdp in any developed system. So if you substantially increased wages and number of workers. You would also need to either run higher budget shortfalls. Or bump taxes a bit. And voters really are not going to take these, even if nurses would get paid.
- 93po 2y agoin the US, it just means billionaires would have a slight cut to their hundreds of billions of profit every single year that comes from deliberately hamstringing an industry and causing millions of unnecessary deaths
- ryandrake 2y agoYou're not allowed to solve anything in the US in a way that causes already rich people to make slightly less profit. All other options will get explored but never that one.
- logicchains 2y ago>I bet that Japanese labors condition will drastically increase in the coming 10 years. That sounds too optimistic to me. The same problem (shrinking young workforce and hellish working conditions) has been going on for a couple decades now with no end in sight. Reform seems impossible; improvement will only come when the big companies collapse and are replaced by companies run by the younger generation who don't see indentured servitude as a virtue. Because no way is anyone in the older generation going to willingly give up their feudalistic power over their employees, they'd rather see their company go bankrupt.
- jhdias 2y agoWhen they cut the teachers' wages And I was not a teacher I stayed quiet When they underpaid the nurses And I was not a nurse I looked away When they devalued the caregivers And I was not a caregiver I remained silent Then when my own profession faced cuts There was no one left To stand with me
- bad_user 2y agoWho is "they"?
- mjburgess 2y agoThe people who set the prices of labour based on the productivity of the worker. The Global Council of Price Fixers, who if not but for, we could take all the profits of the engineers and redistribute them to the teachers. So that we can make sure every $1 an engineer could've turned into $100, a school can turn it into 50 cents.
- hangsi 2y agoNazis, traditionally. Typing it out makes the comparison feel weak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
- bad_user 2y agoSo are nazis cutting the wages of teachers, nurses or caregivers? Are the nazis coming for your profession? Are these nazis in the room with us?
- WesolyKubeczek 2y agoBut you didn’t stay quiet, you were telling them to learn to code.
- decae 2y agoIn this context, the final line would be: Then when my children needed a teacher, and I became sick, or old, there was no one left to support me.
- paxys 2y agoJapan also has a stagnant economy, so companies can't afford to get into bidding wars over talent and offer lavish salaries and benefits like they do in the US.
- black_13 2y ago[dead]
- MrHamburger 2y agoMaybe it is stagnant because companies does not need to compete for staff?
- pdimitar 2y agoDoubtful. National-wide problems don't face budget problems like a struggling family would. There's always some money around, but certain people on influential positions want to take it all -- that's all there is to it really. Or in other words, companies absolutely can bump pays, even with something not huge like 5-10% and they would still be fine, probably better even. But we can't have that when the CEO needs another yacht, or whatever it is that those empty people always chase. And it's somehow never enough.
- aprilthird2021 2y agoNot allowing immigration and simultaneously having a large decline in birth rates, thus a worker shortage is largely what caused Japan's economy to be in the stagnant state its been in for the past 20 years. Before that, everyone thought Japan would be the world economic powerhouse. The US economy has boomed, largely in part due to the rise of software and technology, and most of the big firms in that space were started by young people and immigrants, things Japan is choosing to have less and less of.
- 123yawaworht456 2y agothe US economy has boomed largely in part due to money printer brrrrrrrrrring for a very long time. it isn't particularly booming right now with no ZIRP. immigration didn't save UK and Germany, and it will not save Japan either. no one in their sane mind will look at Western Europe and say 'yep, we want the same thing here. we want to be minorities in our own cities, because That's A Good Thing'.
- mnk47 2y ago> yep, we want the same thing here. we want to be minorities in our own cities where in Western Europe is this currently happening? Which cities?
- slater 2y agoIt's not, of course.
- 123yawaworht456 2y agoLondon, Birmingham and God only knows how many other cities in the UK. London in particular is the most obvious example of why accusations of paranoia and alarmism are either malice or stupidity - the city has changed from being over 95% aboriginal to <50% aboriginal in just 40 years. and it didn't even end there - now it's below 40%. and when all the other cities in UK, France, Germany, Sweden and other "wir schaffen das" countries change as dramatically, the people who are currently saying "it isn't happening" will change their tune to "it's actually a good thing"
- science4sail 2y agoNot necessarily. The Roman emperor Diocletian's response to labor shortages was to revoke civil rights: tie peasants to the land and make many urban jobs hereditary.
- cen4 2y agoJust go to Google News and search of Japanese turning to resignation agencies. All it takes is one news org doing a small story a month ago and now we get hundreds of stories from news orgs around the world with all kinds of opinions and mutations to the original story. Its like watching bacteria reproduce. Soon we will see antibiotic resistance.
- bwb 2y agoPeople are curious beings :), I find a culture that requires these agencies and love learning more.
- lazide 2y agoIt isn’t clear that the culture does actually require these agencies (at least in a common case). It is clear that people love reading/writing articles about it though.
- killingtime74 2y agoNeed is not a matter of my or your opinion. The fact that they exist shows that they are required. Have you heard of similar agencies in other countries?
- mdiesel 2y agoThe fact they exist only shows that someone makes money or benefits from them existing. Customer need is only one way that manifests nowadays
- implements 2y agoYouTube pushed a video about it to me a few days ago - I guess it’s an algorithm driven story.
- andai 2y agoThe one with the red haired woman? I was just telling my friend about that one the other day.
- red_admiral 2y agoLike cancelling your DSL contract before the FTC intervened, I guess. I suppose slacking off isn't an option?
- vanous 2y agoInteresting. On the funny side, glad to hear there are more then 100 of these companies because workers in these companies probably need to ask a competition to hand their resignation letter.
- autoexec 2y ago> Japan’s chronic labour shortage – a symptom of its low birthrate – has also made employers more determined to retain staff, even if it means intimidating them into staying. It's not as if there aren't other ways to convince workers to stay on the job. It's kind of telling that they resort to threats and harassment before they try better wages/benefits or more flexible hours. When employees feel like they can't leave an abusive job you're just a tiny step from slavery. Japanese workers clearly need to assert themselves. If for some of them this is the only way they feel comfortable doing it, at least it's something. Nobody should feel powerless to leave a job they hate.
- javajosh 2y ago>Japanese workers clearly need to assert themselves. I would hesitate to make such an assertion without deeply understanding Japanese culture. There are always trade-offs. The Japanese people have a very unique culture with a lot of positive attributes; it could be that this phenomena is a side-effect of a greater good. To wit, the notion of "loyalty" in Western firms has all but disappeared, in both directions, along with pensions and the rest. As with an engineering decision, you must consider the trade-offs carefully before making a change, or you risk making things worse.
- autoexec 2y agoI'd argue that the notion of "loyalty" in Eastern firms isn't doing very well either considering how employees are being mistreated. Employers abusing their workers certainly aren't loyal and employees who are being abused or intimidated and feel unsafe leaving that job aren't sticking around out of a sense of devotion for their company. I don't think people have to choose between slavery and pensions either. There is clearly a lot of room for a much healthier middle. In any case, whatever the consequences would be to Japanese culture if workers stopped having to pay someone to feel safe leaving their job I feel pretty comfortable saying it would be well worth it.
- lucianbr 2y agoHave you considered the possibility that the good effects are for some smaller group, such as business owners and managers? If we're going to be wise and realise that all decisions have advantages and disadvantages, we should also realise these are not distributed equally. I'm sure slavery had advantages too, for the owners.
- RangerScience 2y agoHuh. I mean - how does that even work? How can the company “force” you to stay, aside from emotional/cultural pressure? Like - If you hand in a resignation, they tear it up, and then you just no-show… what happens?
- christkv 2y agoSurely they have certified mail in Japan.
- lucianbr 2y agoIt's not really a technical issue, they just pretend it is. It's an abuse by the employers, and that's not something you can fix with certified mail. Likely they just find a way to make the certified mail not work when it is in your favor, while of course it works perfectly when you get delivered some notice of trouble for not showing up at work.
- devnull3 2y agoIn India your new employer demands "leaving certificate". This is an official letter from previous letter that you are no longer employed with them. An existing employer can weaponize this and simply not issue this letter. This does not happen in India but I am not sure if this the case in Japan though.
- logicchains 2y agoWhat possible justification is there for that? How did the country of Gandhi get to the point where humans are treated like corporate property?
- mritun 2y agoSame thing happened that has the cooks and gardeners beholden to non-compete agreements in the land of the free! Greed is universal. Slavery is one of the outcomes.
- 2y ago
- SenHeng 2y agoStory time! Back at a previous job in a Japanese Traditional Company over a decade ago, a guy had been trying to quit for months. ‘Tradition’ has it that before you quit, you have to schedule a chat with your team lead, who will then direct your request to the department head for approval. (Yes, you need _permission_ to quit. Fuck the law) This person was a fairly senior engineer and thus quite essential to the company so they kept giving him the run around, rescheduling his chats and not giving him a direct answer. One day, a letter addressed to the dept head came, looking all important and official, like it came from a client. The dept head opened the letter and after taking a quick glance immediately tossed it. Our senpai engineer then jumped up and shouted across the entire office, you have seen my notice now, you cannot deny my resignation! I quit! And he stormed off like a boss. Basically the gist of the story is that they cannot deny your resignation if requested but as long as they don’t acknowledge it they can pretend you never requested it. That’s the origin story of these companies.
- SenHeng 2y agoIt’s telling that if you google for resignation letter in Japanese, you still get a lot of them titled 退職願 — Request to Quit. Things have gotten better in the past 2 decades. 退職届 — Notice of Resignation is more common nowadays.
- exitb 2y agoWould having quit your earlier job reflect on you badly when looking for a new job?
- SenHeng 2y agoNot in our particular industry which is still somewhat meritocratic. Even in the late 2010s, I was still hearing people saying shit like not having more than 5 entries on their employment history.
- cassianoleal 2y ago> Yes, you need _permission_ to quit. Fuck the law Is this in Japan? What happens if you simply stop showing up?
- stormking 2y agoI'm pretty sure giving notice works the same in Japan as everywhere else: You give notice. Your employer does not have to agree to it.
- bell-cot 2y agoThis looks like a great example of why so many HN readers skim the comments before bothering to read the article.
- logicchains 2y agoThe root cause of the problem is how heavily intertwined the banking system is with bigcos in Japan. It's basically impossible for a small startup that competes with a large keiretsu to get funding, so there's no incentive for bigcos to improve their archaic labour and operational processes, which is why Japan has had the lowest labour productivity among G7 countries for the past few decades. Given how abusive work practices have stifled Japanese birth rates, the problem will eventually be solved by natural selection: either Japan will develop a culture with better work-life balance, or the population will dwindle away to nothing and it will simply cease to exist as a nation.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoJapan is a leading edge example of end-stage urbanism and capitalism. America's headed down the exact same path. The only difference is that we have immigration illegal or otherwise to blunt the demographic impact.
- mikewarot 2y ago>“In Japan, companies are traditionally strong – what your employer says goes,” he says. “And Japanese people are generally reluctant to rock the boat. Resigning is seen as escaping and evading your responsibilities. But that is changing.” Oh man.... wait until the youth hear about the US custom of Job Hopping every year to get better pay. The labor markets everywhere are shrinking as people like me are yeeted, or age out of the supply. No wonder the Japanese model is to have a job for life... you're a serf in that model.
- hnbad 2y ago> Japan’s chronic labour shortage – a symptom of its low birthrate – has also made employers more determined to retain staff, even if it means intimidating them into staying. Some force workers to find their own replacements before accepting their resignations or rip up their resignation letters in front of them. You'd think that in a market economy a labor shortage would result in rises in wages and improvements in working conditions because labors hold more leverage in negotiations. And yet.
- MrHamburger 2y agoI would just start working for a different company and ignore the one I don't want to work for. What is the one trying to hold me going to do? Fire me for abstention? Well that's my goal to begin with.
- stop50 2y agothey can sue the worker and get a lot of money out of this.
- MrHamburger 2y agoThen just refuse to understand the task which is being given to you. They can't sue you because you suddenly become stupid. Do it until your KPI is 0 and then your company has no other option then to fire you.
- stop50 2y agoThis and quiet quitting are both reasons they can sue someone.
- MrHamburger 2y agoI don't believe that you can sue anybody for underperforming.
- stop50 2y agoSueing someone because he/she doesn't follow your orders.
- MrHamburger 2y agoI don't understand them, so I can't follow them. You can't sue somebody for being stupid.