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>I don't understand how someone can be barred from an airline because they got a better deal on it. Because they cause a truly stupid amount of inefficiencies

>I don't understand how someone can be barred from an airline because they got a better deal on it. Because they cause a truly stupid amount of inefficiencies and hassle with their desire to save a buck at the cost of everyone else. I think American Airlines's marketing and legal teams dropped the ball as far as how they impressed the court of public opinion, as demonstrated by this very thread. "We couldn't make more money" will almost never speak to the common man. But speaking as someone who's familiar with the aviation industry and flies very often, shenanigans like this cause tremendous losses of time and money when margins are razor thin. A missing passenger means lost time trying to find that passenger which leads to flight delays. Once a passenger is deemed missing, their checked luggage if any needs to be offloaded which causes additional checks of the flight manifest and the cargo bay, leading to even more lost time and flight delays. A seat unoccupied-but-occupied means that seat couldn't have been used to deadhead the crew for another flight, which can include crews from other airlines. This makes scheduling logistics even harder than it needed to be, leading to inefficiencies and in the worst case flight cancellations. This all causes problems for people on the ground: The ground crew at the airports, the flight crew on the plane, the logistics team scheduling everything, and more. It's not just middle management that everyone here likes to flip off. Also a coup de grace for the audience here: Someone skiplagging means the airline flies an empty seat that should have been occupied, wasting fuel. Skiplagging is bad for the environment. I am very happy American Airlines won this, and I will say the same with any other airline. If you want to fly somewhere, buy a ticket specifically for that. If you engage in skiplagging, you are sincerely a greedy fucking bastard and deserve every blacklisting you get.

lastofthemojito 2y ago
I get your point. I've watched the enlightening presentation given at MIT by an airline economist where he explains that for any route, there's no single fare that would make the route profitable. To have the convenience of modern air travel, we seemingly have to put up with the pricing games that make it possible. I've never intentionally skiplagged, but there was one time the first leg of my journey was late, I missed my connection and I was going to be in the airport for 8 or 10 hours to catch my 1 hour flight to my final destination. I decided not to, and instead minimized my misery and bought a ticket for the 3.5 hour train ride home. If an airline looked at that behavior and blacklisted me for not using the service I paid for, then they are the greedy fucking bastards.
- Beijinger 2y ago
  I have skipped a last leg in India when I had a meeting in India during a stop-over. It was cheaper to skip it and fly home via an additional small vacation via Sri Lanka. How did you find out that you got banned?
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >there was one time the first leg of my journey was late, I missed my connection and I was going to be in the airport for 8 or 10 hours to catch my 1 hour flight to my final destination. I decided not to, and instead minimized my misery and bought a ticket for the 3.5 hour train ride home. Two things: 1. That connection miss is strictly on the airline and they did the best they could to make ends meet. An airline worth their salt will bend backwards to make sure you are made whole as practicality allows if things like delays mess up the plans. 2. If you choose to not take them up on the rebookings, that's fine. You should at least let them know you won't be showing up, though.
smashah 2y ago
Skipping a queue in traffic is an asshole thing to do, but we in a society give them the benefit of the doubt because we don't know what they're going through. It inconveniences literally everyone, yet it would be weird for the driver to be blocked from that road for doing so. We shouldn't accept arbitrary restrictions from stupid megacorps. I studied Aviation engineering with Pilot studies and am also a frequent flyer, idgaf if someone skiplags. If a seat on a plane is empty it literally doesn't make a difference to my life as my ass is on another seat. If the empty seat is next to mine then actually that's amazing. > This all causes problems for people on the ground As much as delayed connection or missing passenger, they're trained to do this and it's their job to do so. They're not especially annoyed or insulted if it's due to skiplags. Also your assumption is that the person skiplagging checked in baggage which is beyond idiotic to do and to assume. > logistics team scheduling ops doesn't sit there and cry waiting for 1 single skiplagger with no checked bags. You know what the solution to this is actually? The airlines to allow it so then they are informed of no-shows beforehand. Simple. > means the airline flies an empty seat that should have been occupied, wasting fuel As I said before, if airlines allowed people to be open about their intentions to skiplag then that can be taken into account during W&B. Also 1 or 2 people skiplagging doesn't make a significant dent in fuel burn throughout the flight. Wait till you learn about how aircraft have enough fuel on board to divert - further wasting fuel!! Safety factors are destroying the environment! > If you engage in skiplagging, you are sincerely a greedy fucking bastard and deserve every blacklisting you get. Have you considered that people may have legitimate reasons to skiplag? i.e they cannot afford the full fare, they cannot make the following flight for other reasons? Skip laggers are not uniquely annoying pax, most of your complaints can be made of people who fly for cheap using points - probably an even more collective nuisance. Being on a megacorps side against consumers is strange behaviour.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >legitimate reasons to skiplag? i.e they cannot afford the full fare, Air travel is a privilege, not a right. If you can't afford a ticket, don't fucking buy it. >they cannot make the following flight for other reasons? Sure, but that's not skiplagging. >Being on a megacorps side against consumers is strange behaviour. I am siding with common decency. If you lie in the course of business just to save some pretty pennies, costing everyone else in the process, you are a scumbag and you deserve whatever comes your way. If skiplagging becomes more common, airlines will ultimately raise prices for everyone to make up for the inefficiency and everyone loses. Screw that noise.
amluto 2y ago
>> I don't understand how someone can be barred from an airline because they got a better deal on it. > Because they cause a truly stupid amount of inefficiencies and hassle with their desire to save a buck at the cost of everyone else. This is almost entirely self-inflicted. If the airlines stopped treating people who attempt to cancel a single leg of an itinerary like borderline criminals and instead actually gave an incentive (even a small one) to cancel in advance, this problem would mostly go away. Seriously, I’ve replaced a leg in the middle of a trip with ground transportation due to a delay, and, if I try to call the airline and tell them I’ll be missing that leg, I (a) get yelled at, (b) am threatened with cancellation of the next leg, and (c) have a heck of a time getting the airline not to follow through with (b). If I were flying a hidden city route under these terms, I would fully understand the desire to simply no-show. If I were involved in making regulation, I wound seriously consider requiring airlines to allow passengers to cancel single legs, with one hour notice, without penalty. Let the airlines figure out how to make it work. Charge $200 to reroute bags if needed. And, damn it, require the airline to give a partial refund if the passenger is skipping a leg because it was late (or because the previous leg was late).
15155 2y ago
Here's an idea: the airline could, you know, charge the price that the skiplagged flight would cost? If this is impacting their margins so dearly, they should incentivize for optimizing against it: nobody would ever take a skiplagged flight if there were no pricing penalty. > If you engage in skiplagging, you are sincerely a greedy fucking bastard But the airline isn't greedy for this type of pricing, right?
someluccc 2y ago
“As someone familiar with the aviation industry” you should know people “skiplagging” won’t check bags, which destroys your whole argument since that’s where all the inefficiencies lie. Now you just have a no-show at the gate (P>50% ? something they’re surely used to handle efficiently) giving them some slack to fly their overbook flight without having to bump anyone. Truly a win-win
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >you should know people “skiplagging” won’t check bags The point is that a no-show still causes hassle, and in this case hassle that didn't have to happen. Shit happens, if you turn into a no-show due to factors outside your control nobody's gonna be angry. But if you are a deliberate no-show? All because you wanted to shave some cost? Sincerely fuck you. >that’s where all the inefficiencies lie No.
  - CogitoCogito 2y ago
    Airlines choose these ticketing policies and customers react to them rationally. If the airlines allowed customers to notify them that they won't be taking the final flight without any extra costs, then they wouldn't have to worry about no-shows like this (they could even resell the seat). The airlines are choosing their pricing mechanisms and can live with the consequences.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      >customers react to them rationally There is nothing rational about maliciously misleading someone in a business transaction. >If the airlines allowed customers to notify them that they won't be taking the final flight without any extra costs, You absolutely can: Just walk up to the nearest ticketing counter on your way out the airport and let them know you won't be flying. Simple, done. You might still get blacklisted, but you are presumably okay with the consequences.
      - CogitoCogito 2y ago
__turbobrew__ 2y ago
Nobody who is skiplagging is checking bags. If someone is a no-show the plane should not be held back to wait for them. The ground crew can call out their name a few times but when it is time to leave close the doors and leave. The part about skipplagging causing scheduling issues for deadhead is irrelevant as it doesn’t actually cause scheduling issues, the crew will deadhead on the path they were always planned to do and skiplagging does not affect that. Airlines could make these problems go away if they charged a consistent fee for each hop, but they decide to instead hang super shitty itineraries over your head hoping you will shell out more money so you don’t have to sleep on a bench in JFK. Maybe air travel should be treated like a utility where you pay for transit between locations and the airlines need to offer a fixed cost for those transits. The prices can of course fluxuate based upon demand and other external factors like fuel prices, wages. But the airline should not be able to charge different prices based upon where you are coming from and where you are going, or what IP address you bought the tickets from, or your nationality, etc. I understand that this will most likely make multi hop travel more expensive and single hop travel less expensive, and I think that is a worthwhile tradeoff. Speaking of the environment, imagine if people could take single hop flights more often because they are cheaper than shittier multi hop itineraries. Right now people will take routes which are much less fuel efficient and much worse for the environment because the tickets are cheaper.

lastofthemojito 2y ago

I get your point. I've watched the enlightening presentation given at MIT by an airline economist where he explains that for any route, there's no single fare that would make the route profitable. To have the convenience of modern air travel, we seemingly have to put up with the pricing games that make it possible. I've never intentionally skiplagged, but there was one time the first leg of my journey was late, I missed my connection and I was going to be in the airport for 8 or 10 hours to catch my 1 hour flight to my final destination. I decided not to, and instead minimized my misery and bought a ticket for the 3.5 hour train ride home. If an airline looked at that behavior and blacklisted me for not using the service I paid for, then they are the greedy fucking bastards.

Beijinger 2y ago
I have skipped a last leg in India when I had a meeting in India during a stop-over. It was cheaper to skip it and fly home via an additional small vacation via Sri Lanka. How did you find out that you got banned?
Dalewyn 2y ago
>there was one time the first leg of my journey was late, I missed my connection and I was going to be in the airport for 8 or 10 hours to catch my 1 hour flight to my final destination. I decided not to, and instead minimized my misery and bought a ticket for the 3.5 hour train ride home. Two things: 1. That connection miss is strictly on the airline and they did the best they could to make ends meet. An airline worth their salt will bend backwards to make sure you are made whole as practicality allows if things like delays mess up the plans. 2. If you choose to not take them up on the rebookings, that's fine. You should at least let them know you won't be showing up, though.

smashah 2y ago

Skipping a queue in traffic is an asshole thing to do, but we in a society give them the benefit of the doubt because we don't know what they're going through. It inconveniences literally everyone, yet it would be weird for the driver to be blocked from that road for doing so. We shouldn't accept arbitrary restrictions from stupid megacorps. I studied Aviation engineering with Pilot studies and am also a frequent flyer, idgaf if someone skiplags. If a seat on a plane is empty it literally doesn't make a difference to my life as my ass is on another seat. If the empty seat is next to mine then actually that's amazing. > This all causes problems for people on the ground As much as delayed connection or missing passenger, they're trained to do this and it's their job to do so. They're not especially annoyed or insulted if it's due to skiplags. Also your assumption is that the person skiplagging checked in baggage which is beyond idiotic to do and to assume. > logistics team scheduling ops doesn't sit there and cry waiting for 1 single skiplagger with no checked bags. You know what the solution to this is actually? The airlines to allow it so then they are informed of no-shows beforehand. Simple. > means the airline flies an empty seat that should have been occupied, wasting fuel As I said before, if airlines allowed people to be open about their intentions to skiplag then that can be taken into account during W&B. Also 1 or 2 people skiplagging doesn't make a significant dent in fuel burn throughout the flight. Wait till you learn about how aircraft have enough fuel on board to divert - further wasting fuel!! Safety factors are destroying the environment! > If you engage in skiplagging, you are sincerely a greedy fucking bastard and deserve every blacklisting you get. Have you considered that people may have legitimate reasons to skiplag? i.e they cannot afford the full fare, they cannot make the following flight for other reasons? Skip laggers are not uniquely annoying pax, most of your complaints can be made of people who fly for cheap using points - probably an even more collective nuisance. Being on a megacorps side against consumers is strange behaviour.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>legitimate reasons to skiplag? i.e they cannot afford the full fare, Air travel is a privilege, not a right. If you can't afford a ticket, don't fucking buy it. >they cannot make the following flight for other reasons? Sure, but that's not skiplagging. >Being on a megacorps side against consumers is strange behaviour. I am siding with common decency. If you lie in the course of business just to save some pretty pennies, costing everyone else in the process, you are a scumbag and you deserve whatever comes your way. If skiplagging becomes more common, airlines will ultimately raise prices for everyone to make up for the inefficiency and everyone loses. Screw that noise.

amluto 2y ago

>> I don't understand how someone can be barred from an airline because they got a better deal on it. > Because they cause a truly stupid amount of inefficiencies and hassle with their desire to save a buck at the cost of everyone else. This is almost entirely self-inflicted. If the airlines stopped treating people who attempt to cancel a single leg of an itinerary like borderline criminals and instead actually gave an incentive (even a small one) to cancel in advance, this problem would mostly go away. Seriously, I’ve replaced a leg in the middle of a trip with ground transportation due to a delay, and, if I try to call the airline and tell them I’ll be missing that leg, I (a) get yelled at, (b) am threatened with cancellation of the next leg, and (c) have a heck of a time getting the airline not to follow through with (b). If I were flying a hidden city route under these terms, I would fully understand the desire to simply no-show. If I were involved in making regulation, I wound seriously consider requiring airlines to allow passengers to cancel single legs, with one hour notice, without penalty. Let the airlines figure out how to make it work. Charge $200 to reroute bags if needed. And, damn it, require the airline to give a partial refund if the passenger is skipping a leg because it was late (or because the previous leg was late).

15155 2y ago

Here's an idea: the airline could, you know, charge the price that the skiplagged flight would cost? If this is impacting their margins so dearly, they should incentivize for optimizing against it: nobody would ever take a skiplagged flight if there were no pricing penalty. > If you engage in skiplagging, you are sincerely a greedy fucking bastard But the airline isn't greedy for this type of pricing, right?

someluccc 2y ago

“As someone familiar with the aviation industry” you should know people “skiplagging” won’t check bags, which destroys your whole argument since that’s where all the inefficiencies lie. Now you just have a no-show at the gate (P>50% ? something they’re surely used to handle efficiently) giving them some slack to fly their overbook flight without having to bump anyone. Truly a win-win

Dalewyn 2y ago
>you should know people “skiplagging” won’t check bags The point is that a no-show still causes hassle, and in this case hassle that didn't have to happen. Shit happens, if you turn into a no-show due to factors outside your control nobody's gonna be angry. But if you are a deliberate no-show? All because you wanted to shave some cost? Sincerely fuck you. >that’s where all the inefficiencies lie No.
- CogitoCogito 2y ago
  Airlines choose these ticketing policies and customers react to them rationally. If the airlines allowed customers to notify them that they won't be taking the final flight without any extra costs, then they wouldn't have to worry about no-shows like this (they could even resell the seat). The airlines are choosing their pricing mechanisms and can live with the consequences.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    >customers react to them rationally There is nothing rational about maliciously misleading someone in a business transaction. >If the airlines allowed customers to notify them that they won't be taking the final flight without any extra costs, You absolutely can: Just walk up to the nearest ticketing counter on your way out the airport and let them know you won't be flying. Simple, done. You might still get blacklisted, but you are presumably okay with the consequences.
    - CogitoCogito 2y ago

__turbobrew__ 2y ago

Nobody who is skiplagging is checking bags. If someone is a no-show the plane should not be held back to wait for them. The ground crew can call out their name a few times but when it is time to leave close the doors and leave. The part about skipplagging causing scheduling issues for deadhead is irrelevant as it doesn’t actually cause scheduling issues, the crew will deadhead on the path they were always planned to do and skiplagging does not affect that. Airlines could make these problems go away if they charged a consistent fee for each hop, but they decide to instead hang super shitty itineraries over your head hoping you will shell out more money so you don’t have to sleep on a bench in JFK. Maybe air travel should be treated like a utility where you pay for transit between locations and the airlines need to offer a fixed cost for those transits. The prices can of course fluxuate based upon demand and other external factors like fuel prices, wages. But the airline should not be able to charge different prices based upon where you are coming from and where you are going, or what IP address you bought the tickets from, or your nationality, etc. I understand that this will most likely make multi hop travel more expensive and single hop travel less expensive, and I think that is a worthwhile tradeoff. Speaking of the environment, imagine if people could take single hop flights more often because they are cheaper than shittier multi hop itineraries. Right now people will take routes which are much less fuel efficient and much worse for the environment because the tickets are cheaper.