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Ok, I used imprecise language in using the colloquial term. I'm not a pilot. I don't work in ATC. The exact nature of the plane doesn't seem too relevant to whe

Ok, I used imprecise language in using the colloquial term. I'm not a pilot. I don't work in ATC. The exact nature of the plane doesn't seem too relevant to whether they should have been flying across the path of an airport runway without listening to ATC. It's not as if the lack of literal jet engines makes it less of a problem or less of a rich person's toy.

AceyMan 2y ago
Well, imprecise language really is key here - because a pilot with a turbojet rating is, de facto, a better pilot than one who's flying a single engine piston plane. Words matter.
- noirbot 2y ago
  Honest question, why would they de facto be better? Is it harder to fly a jet-engine plane? Especially when we're talking about generally flying safely in terms of "in airspace you're allowed to be in and being aware of other planes"? I could see a more complex plane being literally harder to fly, but is there a reason a Cessna isn't easier to fly safely?
  - K0balt 2y ago
    In general, a jet is much more likely to be coordinating with ATC even if they aren’t required to under the specific circumstances. But still, this was a failure of ATC to provide adequate separation from an aircraft that they knew was operating under Visual Flight Rules, and was not under ATC control. The Cessna pilot is under no obligation to maintain contact with ATC in this airspace, and it is the job of ATC to route the aircraft under its guidance around this kind of airspace, and if penetration of uncontrolled airspace is required, then to advise about and route around any known traffic. The Cessna was probably communicating with the relevant CTAF or tower frequency for the airport it was setting up an approach for, or monitoring Unicom for traffic avoidance for other small VFR aircraft. A single pilot can’t fly, navigate, and maintain traffic separation in a plane and communicate on all frequencies at once simultaneously, and ATC does not have the resources to control all random manoeuvres of small aircraft. This is why there are places where small aircraft operate, mostly under “see and avoid” VFR rules, and places where all operations are done under strict ATC controls. In this case, the heavy aircraft was directed to fly through one of these uncontrolled areas, and the controller failed to maintain adequate separation from uncontrolled operations.
  - AceyMan 2y ago
    It's a next level certification - to achieve that rating you have to prove mastery of techniques and skills not examined in the requirements for a Private Pilot license.
ceejayoz 2y ago
> The exact nature of the plane doesn't seem too relevant to whether they should have been flying across the path of an airport runway without listening to ATC. ATC had this controlled aircraft outside the airport's standard controlled airspace. The fact that TCAS occurred at all means the Cessna was properly (legal requirement) broadcasting its altitude, airspeed, and GPS position to all around it. The blame here likely lies with ATC, not the Cessna pilot. edit: Flight tracks and ATC comms at https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1847148742882857191 https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1847148742882857191. This was ATC's problem.
K0balt 2y ago
Cheaper than a cybertruck, but rich is a matter of perspective.

AceyMan 2y ago

Well, imprecise language really is key here - because a pilot with a turbojet rating is, de facto, a better pilot than one who's flying a single engine piston plane. Words matter.

noirbot 2y ago
Honest question, why would they de facto be better? Is it harder to fly a jet-engine plane? Especially when we're talking about generally flying safely in terms of "in airspace you're allowed to be in and being aware of other planes"? I could see a more complex plane being literally harder to fly, but is there a reason a Cessna isn't easier to fly safely?
- K0balt 2y ago
  In general, a jet is much more likely to be coordinating with ATC even if they aren’t required to under the specific circumstances. But still, this was a failure of ATC to provide adequate separation from an aircraft that they knew was operating under Visual Flight Rules, and was not under ATC control. The Cessna pilot is under no obligation to maintain contact with ATC in this airspace, and it is the job of ATC to route the aircraft under its guidance around this kind of airspace, and if penetration of uncontrolled airspace is required, then to advise about and route around any known traffic. The Cessna was probably communicating with the relevant CTAF or tower frequency for the airport it was setting up an approach for, or monitoring Unicom for traffic avoidance for other small VFR aircraft. A single pilot can’t fly, navigate, and maintain traffic separation in a plane and communicate on all frequencies at once simultaneously, and ATC does not have the resources to control all random manoeuvres of small aircraft. This is why there are places where small aircraft operate, mostly under “see and avoid” VFR rules, and places where all operations are done under strict ATC controls. In this case, the heavy aircraft was directed to fly through one of these uncontrolled areas, and the controller failed to maintain adequate separation from uncontrolled operations.
- AceyMan 2y ago
  It's a next level certification - to achieve that rating you have to prove mastery of techniques and skills not examined in the requirements for a Private Pilot license.

ceejayoz 2y ago

> The exact nature of the plane doesn't seem too relevant to whether they should have been flying across the path of an airport runway without listening to ATC. ATC had this controlled aircraft outside the airport's standard controlled airspace. The fact that TCAS occurred at all means the Cessna was properly (legal requirement) broadcasting its altitude, airspeed, and GPS position to all around it. The blame here likely lies with ATC, not the Cessna pilot. edit: Flight tracks and ATC comms at https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1847148742882857191 https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1847148742882857191. This was ATC's problem.

K0balt 2y ago

Cheaper than a cybertruck, but rich is a matter of perspective.