4 ms·

I'm sure there's already a plan to monetize and privatize what's soon to be the most valuable biometric database on earth. Plus it's cute how they developed th

by AyyEye 2y ago

I'm sure there's already a plan to monetize and privatize what's soon to be the most valuable biometric database on earth. Plus it's cute how they developed the problem [reaction] solution in parallel. [1] > Something like World ID will eventually exist, meaning that you will need to verify [that you are human] on the internet, whether you like it or not. I think that's certainly going to happen with the progress in AI. Par for the course for the Davos types. [1] https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/07/10/an-orb-a-token-and-money-for-everyone-worldcoins-ceo-on-cryptos-most-daring-project/ https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/07/10/an-or...

game_the0ry 2y ago
> Something like World ID will eventually exist, meaning that you will need to verify [that you are human] on the internet, whether you like it or not. I think that's certainly going to happen with the progress in AI. No thanks. I would prefer to just opt out.
- runako 2y ago
  If this was necessary to solve a problem, why wouldn't the existing Internet access points simply solve the problems? For example, why would Apple not add liveness detection to its devices, which users already trust with their biometric data? One could imagine a Web standard that specifies minimum capabilities for user agents, which could then be implemented in a variety of ways. Apple might use an upgraded FaceID, for example. That would have the added benefit of being able to verify liveness anywhere, anytime, unlike the Orbs. World feels like a ZIRP phenomenon.
  - ejddhbrbrrnrn 2y ago
    This is what I thought. Finger print and face detection have been added with little fanfare. FAANG wont let this become a defacfo standard without a fight.
  - game_the0ry 2y ago
    > For example, why would Apple not add liveness detection to its devices, which users already trust with their biometric data? That's what I always assumed too, that existing biometrics on mobile would be adequate. This World Coin Orbo bullshit doe not bring anything to the table except get sama one step closer to his wet dream fantasy of WorLD DomInaAtiOn.
- janice1999 2y ago
  You won't have a choice depending on what it will gatekeep, just like how at the moment web users can't opt out of being fingerprinted [1] and data intercepted by Cloudflare when they want to visit their favourite site or have to live with never having root access to their phones if they want to use their bank's mobile app. [1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-ephemeral-ids-for-fraud-detection/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-ephemeral-ids-for-frau...
  - ejddhbrbrrnrn 2y ago
    It is more like how you can't opt out of an okta app, cisco vpn on your phone etc. if you want a job. Speaking of which I suspect these sort of companies not World will win this race. It wont be a new product for them. It is just a new feature.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      > It is more like how you can't opt out of an okta app, cisco vpn on your phone etc. if you want a job. Huh? I've never needed any apps of those natures (or any apps at all) to get and keep jobs.
- anonymousab 2y ago
  Anonymity and lack of accountability/a target to attack on the internet is just a huge pain in the ass for most governments and corporate interests. It is also useful, to some extent, for bot farms, propaganda, opinion influencing and spycraft. But if you're a government controlling the "internet id" for your or other nations, then you can easily make affordances for whipping up a "valid" fake digital personage. That it still exists is a technical and political challenge that will eventually be resolved. There's too much money and soft and hard power to be gained by getting rid of it.
Terr_ 2y ago
> > verify [that you are human] on the internet IMO it's crucial that we keep in mind the policy/engineering differences between: 1. Prove you're a human and share your global permanent ID. 2. Prove you're probably human. 3. Prove that if you're a bot you're at least the high-quality kind that isn't part of an army and whose operators are likely to follow the rules. In many cases #1 is overkill, difficult to engineer, has reams of nasty privacy implications, and requires a massive amount of bureaucracy for edge-cases. Most websites are happy with #2 or even #3. [Edit: Some prior musings in comments here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41714245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41714245 , where someone also mentions Worldcoin.]
- CatWChainsaw 2y ago
  The finance industry has strict KYC laws to prevent fraud and funding of other criminal pursuits. Now we have several converging trends: - we need to know if anyone ever says anything doubleplus ungood so we can punish them with a lifetime exile from society. what qualifies depends on the day and if mercury is in retrograde. - data is useful for making money - human verification on an AI-enshittified net becomes practically "required" to get any "legitimate" content, by which i mean the dreck we had pre-2022 as opposed to post-2022. - everything as a subscription service - also the ghost of web 3.0 More parties are incentivized to hoover more data. So although #1 is overkill and everything else you listed, it's the path more companies will be taking in a neverending arms race.
pvaldes 2y ago
The market for fake eyes made on resin and plastic seems to have a brilliant future. Soon most of all 'certified 100% humans' talking on internet will be animatronic heads without a brain. Same as today
- AyyEye 2y ago
  The orb is a multi-spectral imager with extreme zoom, liquid lens, and very tamper hardened. They'll be everywhere.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    I doubt it. For one thing, the ergonomics of an "orb" are horrible. This is a solution looking for a problem and seemingly designed by people who took the wrong lessons from Apple's success. Incidentally they have a typo in their announcement page[1]. > The Orb is the incluse[sic], secure and anonymous device that enables World ID holders to verify their humanness and uniqueness. I assume "incluse" is meant to be "inclusive". But what's "inclusive" about letting a startup with foggy monetization plans collect everyone's biometrics? Sounds like bullshit. [1] https://world.org/blog/announcements/world-unveils-new-orb-new-ways-to-verify-scale-network-1-billion-humans https://world.org/blog/announcements/world-unveils-new-orb-n... Edit: I'm reminded of this old clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 From all external appearances, "World" is being run by sales and marketing people from its inception.
- tim333 2y ago
  So far the orbs have been human operated and I think they'd give you a funny look if you tried it with a fake head.
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    If you need an orb plus an human to recognize a person, why do you need the orb. Just use the biggest cheapest technology available, just one human and no orb asking for an ID card. Or a sign of "put your card in this slot to open the door please". Well tested and reliable. But if we think that the orb is doing something here, why not be ambitious? Lets provide each door with a device to extract blood and made a DNA analysis so is 100% granted that every time somebody enter their home is not a thief disguised as the owner
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
It is genuinely kinda fascinating, because, lets face it, based on what we are seeing now, short of omega swan event ( black swan events seem too common lately ), it will actually be a problem that will need to be solved. I am just mildly annoyed that solution to prove I am human is to effectively give last parts of me that are.
- AyyEye 2y ago
  > I am just mildly annoyed that solution to prove I am human is to effectively give last parts of me that are. What a poetic way to put it.
Barrin92 2y ago
>Something like World ID will eventually exist It's called a national ID with an eID feature and I've been using it to verify my age when I order booze online for like a decade. It cost 5 bucks extra when I renewed my id the last time. What do I need an eyeball scanning orb and a crypto coin for something that every developed or for that matter half developed government invented in like 2010?
- Terr_ 2y ago
  I agree that the crypto/blockchain angle is stupid, since it only makes sense in a completely hypothetical future where somehow governments ceased to exist or don't have identity management as one of their core functions. (For some people, this is less of a system-design oversight and more of an agenda.) That said, there's always potential to improve privacy with some clever algorithms: A lot of naive approaches would make it too easy for a government or vendor to have lots of information about your activities that they don't really need or deserve to have.
Philadelphia 2y ago
If we’re dealing with an all-powerful Skynet intelligence, or even a WOPR or Wintermute, won’t it just figure out how to bypass the verification system?
- AyyEye 2y ago
  How smart your AI is depends on whether you're selling the poison or the antidote.
  - AlexandrB 2y ago
    AKA: who you're marketing something to.
dang 2y ago
> Sam the snake Please edit personal attacks out of your HN comments, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You may not owe people whom you call snakes better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. This applies regardless of who the person in question is, because it's not about them, it's about us, i.e. the group you belong to.
- AyyEye 2y ago
  Edited, sorry.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
tim333 2y ago
World(coin) was always private with monetization plans. They are VC funded by a16z and the like. Though how exactly they'll monetize or not remains to be seen. You can already make payments through the app.

by AyyEye 2y ago

game_the0ry 2y ago

> Something like World ID will eventually exist, meaning that you will need to verify [that you are human] on the internet, whether you like it or not. I think that's certainly going to happen with the progress in AI. No thanks. I would prefer to just opt out.

runako 2y ago
If this was necessary to solve a problem, why wouldn't the existing Internet access points simply solve the problems? For example, why would Apple not add liveness detection to its devices, which users already trust with their biometric data? One could imagine a Web standard that specifies minimum capabilities for user agents, which could then be implemented in a variety of ways. Apple might use an upgraded FaceID, for example. That would have the added benefit of being able to verify liveness anywhere, anytime, unlike the Orbs. World feels like a ZIRP phenomenon.
- ejddhbrbrrnrn 2y ago
  This is what I thought. Finger print and face detection have been added with little fanfare. FAANG wont let this become a defacfo standard without a fight.
- game_the0ry 2y ago
  > For example, why would Apple not add liveness detection to its devices, which users already trust with their biometric data? That's what I always assumed too, that existing biometrics on mobile would be adequate. This World Coin Orbo bullshit doe not bring anything to the table except get sama one step closer to his wet dream fantasy of WorLD DomInaAtiOn.
janice1999 2y ago
You won't have a choice depending on what it will gatekeep, just like how at the moment web users can't opt out of being fingerprinted [1] and data intercepted by Cloudflare when they want to visit their favourite site or have to live with never having root access to their phones if they want to use their bank's mobile app. [1] https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-ephemeral-ids-for-fraud-detection/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-ephemeral-ids-for-frau...
- ejddhbrbrrnrn 2y ago
  It is more like how you can't opt out of an okta app, cisco vpn on your phone etc. if you want a job. Speaking of which I suspect these sort of companies not World will win this race. It wont be a new product for them. It is just a new feature.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    > It is more like how you can't opt out of an okta app, cisco vpn on your phone etc. if you want a job. Huh? I've never needed any apps of those natures (or any apps at all) to get and keep jobs.
anonymousab 2y ago
Anonymity and lack of accountability/a target to attack on the internet is just a huge pain in the ass for most governments and corporate interests. It is also useful, to some extent, for bot farms, propaganda, opinion influencing and spycraft. But if you're a government controlling the "internet id" for your or other nations, then you can easily make affordances for whipping up a "valid" fake digital personage. That it still exists is a technical and political challenge that will eventually be resolved. There's too much money and soft and hard power to be gained by getting rid of it.

Terr_ 2y ago

> > verify [that you are human] on the internet IMO it's crucial that we keep in mind the policy/engineering differences between: 1. Prove you're a human and share your global permanent ID. 2. Prove you're probably human. 3. Prove that if you're a bot you're at least the high-quality kind that isn't part of an army and whose operators are likely to follow the rules. In many cases #1 is overkill, difficult to engineer, has reams of nasty privacy implications, and requires a massive amount of bureaucracy for edge-cases. Most websites are happy with #2 or even #3. [Edit: Some prior musings in comments here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41714245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41714245 , where someone also mentions Worldcoin.]

CatWChainsaw 2y ago
The finance industry has strict KYC laws to prevent fraud and funding of other criminal pursuits. Now we have several converging trends: - we need to know if anyone ever says anything doubleplus ungood so we can punish them with a lifetime exile from society. what qualifies depends on the day and if mercury is in retrograde. - data is useful for making money - human verification on an AI-enshittified net becomes practically "required" to get any "legitimate" content, by which i mean the dreck we had pre-2022 as opposed to post-2022. - everything as a subscription service - also the ghost of web 3.0 More parties are incentivized to hoover more data. So although #1 is overkill and everything else you listed, it's the path more companies will be taking in a neverending arms race.

pvaldes 2y ago

The market for fake eyes made on resin and plastic seems to have a brilliant future. Soon most of all 'certified 100% humans' talking on internet will be animatronic heads without a brain. Same as today

AyyEye 2y ago
The orb is a multi-spectral imager with extreme zoom, liquid lens, and very tamper hardened. They'll be everywhere.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  I doubt it. For one thing, the ergonomics of an "orb" are horrible. This is a solution looking for a problem and seemingly designed by people who took the wrong lessons from Apple's success. Incidentally they have a typo in their announcement page[1]. > The Orb is the incluse[sic], secure and anonymous device that enables World ID holders to verify their humanness and uniqueness. I assume "incluse" is meant to be "inclusive". But what's "inclusive" about letting a startup with foggy monetization plans collect everyone's biometrics? Sounds like bullshit. [1] https://world.org/blog/announcements/world-unveils-new-orb-new-ways-to-verify-scale-network-1-billion-humans https://world.org/blog/announcements/world-unveils-new-orb-n... Edit: I'm reminded of this old clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4VBqTViEx4 From all external appearances, "World" is being run by sales and marketing people from its inception.
tim333 2y ago
So far the orbs have been human operated and I think they'd give you a funny look if you tried it with a fake head.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  If you need an orb plus an human to recognize a person, why do you need the orb. Just use the biggest cheapest technology available, just one human and no orb asking for an ID card. Or a sign of "put your card in this slot to open the door please". Well tested and reliable. But if we think that the orb is doing something here, why not be ambitious? Lets provide each door with a device to extract blood and made a DNA analysis so is 100% granted that every time somebody enter their home is not a thief disguised as the owner

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

It is genuinely kinda fascinating, because, lets face it, based on what we are seeing now, short of omega swan event ( black swan events seem too common lately ), it will actually be a problem that will need to be solved. I am just mildly annoyed that solution to prove I am human is to effectively give last parts of me that are.

AyyEye 2y ago
> I am just mildly annoyed that solution to prove I am human is to effectively give last parts of me that are. What a poetic way to put it.

Barrin92 2y ago

>Something like World ID will eventually exist It's called a national ID with an eID feature and I've been using it to verify my age when I order booze online for like a decade. It cost 5 bucks extra when I renewed my id the last time. What do I need an eyeball scanning orb and a crypto coin for something that every developed or for that matter half developed government invented in like 2010?

Terr_ 2y ago
I agree that the crypto/blockchain angle is stupid, since it only makes sense in a completely hypothetical future where somehow governments ceased to exist or don't have identity management as one of their core functions. (For some people, this is less of a system-design oversight and more of an agenda.) That said, there's always potential to improve privacy with some clever algorithms: A lot of naive approaches would make it too easy for a government or vendor to have lots of information about your activities that they don't really need or deserve to have.

Philadelphia 2y ago

If we’re dealing with an all-powerful Skynet intelligence, or even a WOPR or Wintermute, won’t it just figure out how to bypass the verification system?

AyyEye 2y ago
How smart your AI is depends on whether you're selling the poison or the antidote.
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  AKA: who you're marketing something to.

dang 2y ago

> Sam the snake Please edit personal attacks out of your HN comments, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You may not owe people whom you call snakes better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. This applies regardless of who the person in question is, because it's not about them, it's about us, i.e. the group you belong to.

AyyEye 2y ago
Edited, sorry.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

tim333 2y ago

World(coin) was always private with monetization plans. They are VC funded by a16z and the like. Though how exactly they'll monetize or not remains to be seen. You can already make payments through the app.