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Smart contracts only affects on-chain stuff, and this deals with real-world things. No smart contract is going to help you if webmasters update website, or if a

by theamk 2y ago

Smart contracts only affects on-chain stuff, and this deals with real-world things. No smart contract is going to help you if webmasters update website, or if a board decides to add a rule. See also: NFT delisting.

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
When I imagine using crypto for this problem, the on-chain portion is a registry of hashes (for the songs) which maps them to addresses which I can send money to and then the contract multiplexes the money out to the appropriate people. So if it's one dude with a guitar and a microphone, 100% goes to him. But if it's a remix of a remix of a remix, then maybe that money gets split 50 ways. I don't know if I need a website or a board for that. Of course I'm not the one building this, so my imagined design doesn't matter. But the question is: if not that, then what? I'm curious, I'm just gonna sleep on it before I decide that I'm $100 curious. Edit: I see I can get the zine digitally first before deciding to be an owner. I guess I have some reading to do.
- cyberax 2y ago
  What would happen if somebody forgets or loses the key? Reality: there's nothing that blockchain does better than an Excel sheet.
  - kalaksi 2y ago
    Saying something is "reality" doesn't make it so.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Care to name a few industries transformed by the blockchain? And no, payments for ransomware don't count. Illicit payments for CSAM and drugs also are not an example I'm looking for. And no, international sanctions busting is not a good example either. The same goes for Ponzi schemes.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    They create a new address and from it they publish a revocation of the old address. Then they re-register their content and associate it with payment patterns that pay out to the new address. Then they propagate the new address in-person. When fans trust the new address, their client notices the conflict and they're prompted to prune the old one (since the trust-score on the new one is higher). If the artist-fan-trust-relationship is multi-hop, it may take a little while for the switch to propagate from fan-to-fan rather than from artist-to-fan, but when it does they'd be notified to consider making the same change. Meanwhile, a timer has been going since the last time the artist collected funds from the account with the lost key. Once it gets suitably high, the pending payments into it are reversed back to the fans, and the pattern is altered to exclude the abandoned address and notify payers that they might be a better pattern to use, prompting them to find and use the new pattern. It's not the simplest way, but it's the best I can do without having anybody on payroll, which means maximizing the amount received by the artists. Besides, art is supposed to be transformative, not status-quo preserving. Even though 99% of artists don't have to worry about being censored directly, I think they're more likely to be interested in protecting the 1% who do. That means having both groups using the same payment rails, and they must be rails that don't respect the kind of bullies that freeze accounts based on content. Finally, you can lean on this web of trust for the distribution of things like concert tickets, making life more difficult for scalpers (and you can identify the scaplers who have infiltrated your fan network, and explicitly distrust them for next time).
    - cyberax 2y ago
      > Once it gets suitably high, the pending payments into it are reversed back to the fans So basically: you're screwed. > Besides, art is supposed to be transformative, not status-quo preserving. Blah-blah-blah. I would really love to belong to a collective that puts my music right next to CSAM. Fans would really appreciate it. So now you have to have an enforcement mechanism, like voting. What if somebody hacks enough keys to take over the voting? Have even more privileged members? That's the thing: the real-world complexity has to deal with all kinds of edge cases. And we have a legal system for that, with several thousand years of legacy in it.
      - 2y ago
- hatsix 2y ago
  That's not how music gets paid out. You have the label, publisher and PRO/CMO. The actual amounts depend on both where the purchaser is at the time of purchase and where the payouts go to. There's a reason there are so few players, it's complicated once you go international. I would suggest going after the massive corpus of laws, but most are the to protect artists... they just do it in very different ways, and often pre-date the Internet.
- theamk 2y ago
  That is so blockchain: a solution that does not work and users do not need. Blockchain only sees hashes, so it has no way of knowing if that hash of a new song that was just uploaded is really a remix. But, if you solve this somehow (and I bet you can't in a way that can't be gamed), people can just distribute remixes outside of blockchain altogether. No blockchain is going to help you collect royalties from youtube stream. Second, "money distribution for remixes without trusted parties" is not a very common problem. If contract participants want to cheat each other, they can do it easily by lying about number of listeners, they don't need to do something trivially detectable like messing with contract itself.
Self-Perfection 2y ago
But it possible to host a website almost on blockchain (see TON Sites as example) and withdraw certain modification permissions once the contract in launched. It seems to me that it is possible to implement fully decentralized bandcamp-like site.
- josephg 2y ago
  I’ve yet to see any useful product built on top of crypto. Can you name any? (Not including things that just make early adopters rich or simply provide services to other crypto related projects).
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    Any day now!
  - Self-Perfection 2y ago
    How about auctions for telegram usernames? It helps to distribute limited resource.
    - theamk 2y ago
      Telegram usernames are fully centralized - you have to trust Telegram FZ LLC to ensure auction results are respected. Which means there is no extra trust from blockchain, it's just a gimmick.
      - Self-Perfection 2y ago
        Yes, it is true that Telegram can technically ignore who owns an NFT with a username, just like any platform can strip a user of their username. However: 1. If someone approaches you and wants to buy your username, you can sell it without the need for trust in the buyer or a third party. 2. Consider this scenario: someone writes anonymously in a public channel and then Telegram removes the channel, and bans its username. If the author has an NFT associated with their username, they have a way to prove to the public that the new platform where they continue to post is indeed managed by the same person and not an impostor. Therefore, there is additional value in using blockchain in this case.

by theamk 2y ago

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago

When I imagine using crypto for this problem, the on-chain portion is a registry of hashes (for the songs) which maps them to addresses which I can send money to and then the contract multiplexes the money out to the appropriate people. So if it's one dude with a guitar and a microphone, 100% goes to him. But if it's a remix of a remix of a remix, then maybe that money gets split 50 ways. I don't know if I need a website or a board for that. Of course I'm not the one building this, so my imagined design doesn't matter. But the question is: if not that, then what? I'm curious, I'm just gonna sleep on it before I decide that I'm $100 curious. Edit: I see I can get the zine digitally first before deciding to be an owner. I guess I have some reading to do.

cyberax 2y ago
What would happen if somebody forgets or loses the key? Reality: there's nothing that blockchain does better than an Excel sheet.
- kalaksi 2y ago
  Saying something is "reality" doesn't make it so.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Care to name a few industries transformed by the blockchain? And no, payments for ransomware don't count. Illicit payments for CSAM and drugs also are not an example I'm looking for. And no, international sanctions busting is not a good example either. The same goes for Ponzi schemes.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  They create a new address and from it they publish a revocation of the old address. Then they re-register their content and associate it with payment patterns that pay out to the new address. Then they propagate the new address in-person. When fans trust the new address, their client notices the conflict and they're prompted to prune the old one (since the trust-score on the new one is higher). If the artist-fan-trust-relationship is multi-hop, it may take a little while for the switch to propagate from fan-to-fan rather than from artist-to-fan, but when it does they'd be notified to consider making the same change. Meanwhile, a timer has been going since the last time the artist collected funds from the account with the lost key. Once it gets suitably high, the pending payments into it are reversed back to the fans, and the pattern is altered to exclude the abandoned address and notify payers that they might be a better pattern to use, prompting them to find and use the new pattern. It's not the simplest way, but it's the best I can do without having anybody on payroll, which means maximizing the amount received by the artists. Besides, art is supposed to be transformative, not status-quo preserving. Even though 99% of artists don't have to worry about being censored directly, I think they're more likely to be interested in protecting the 1% who do. That means having both groups using the same payment rails, and they must be rails that don't respect the kind of bullies that freeze accounts based on content. Finally, you can lean on this web of trust for the distribution of things like concert tickets, making life more difficult for scalpers (and you can identify the scaplers who have infiltrated your fan network, and explicitly distrust them for next time).
  - cyberax 2y ago
    > Once it gets suitably high, the pending payments into it are reversed back to the fans So basically: you're screwed. > Besides, art is supposed to be transformative, not status-quo preserving. Blah-blah-blah. I would really love to belong to a collective that puts my music right next to CSAM. Fans would really appreciate it. So now you have to have an enforcement mechanism, like voting. What if somebody hacks enough keys to take over the voting? Have even more privileged members? That's the thing: the real-world complexity has to deal with all kinds of edge cases. And we have a legal system for that, with several thousand years of legacy in it.
    - 2y ago
hatsix 2y ago
That's not how music gets paid out. You have the label, publisher and PRO/CMO. The actual amounts depend on both where the purchaser is at the time of purchase and where the payouts go to. There's a reason there are so few players, it's complicated once you go international. I would suggest going after the massive corpus of laws, but most are the to protect artists... they just do it in very different ways, and often pre-date the Internet.
theamk 2y ago
That is so blockchain: a solution that does not work and users do not need. Blockchain only sees hashes, so it has no way of knowing if that hash of a new song that was just uploaded is really a remix. But, if you solve this somehow (and I bet you can't in a way that can't be gamed), people can just distribute remixes outside of blockchain altogether. No blockchain is going to help you collect royalties from youtube stream. Second, "money distribution for remixes without trusted parties" is not a very common problem. If contract participants want to cheat each other, they can do it easily by lying about number of listeners, they don't need to do something trivially detectable like messing with contract itself.

Self-Perfection 2y ago

But it possible to host a website almost on blockchain (see TON Sites as example) and withdraw certain modification permissions once the contract in launched. It seems to me that it is possible to implement fully decentralized bandcamp-like site.

josephg 2y ago
I’ve yet to see any useful product built on top of crypto. Can you name any? (Not including things that just make early adopters rich or simply provide services to other crypto related projects).
- portaouflop 2y ago
  Any day now!
- Self-Perfection 2y ago
  How about auctions for telegram usernames? It helps to distribute limited resource.
  - theamk 2y ago
    Telegram usernames are fully centralized - you have to trust Telegram FZ LLC to ensure auction results are respected. Which means there is no extra trust from blockchain, it's just a gimmick.
    - Self-Perfection 2y ago
      Yes, it is true that Telegram can technically ignore who owns an NFT with a username, just like any platform can strip a user of their username. However: 1. If someone approaches you and wants to buy your username, you can sell it without the need for trust in the buyer or a third party. 2. Consider this scenario: someone writes anonymously in a public channel and then Telegram removes the channel, and bans its username. If the author has an NFT associated with their username, they have a way to prove to the public that the new platform where they continue to post is indeed managed by the same person and not an impostor. Therefore, there is additional value in using blockchain in this case.