4 ms·

> It doesn’t require the full engagement of your entire person, like psychotherapy or software engineering. A long career would be soul-destroying, for sure, bu

> It doesn’t require the full engagement of your entire person, like psychotherapy or software engineering. A long career would be soul-destroying, for sure, but a day of driving can be ploughed through much more easily by physical brute force than can a day of software engineering. I think this post comes across as unpleasant because it is so dismissive of other peoples struggles. If you just said, yeah software engineering isn't for me, that's one thing. But you're saying software engineering is objectively the most difficult, soul-destroying, draining job, and other people have it easier in this respect. Im sorry but that's just objectively not true. I would push you to consider that, maybe, something else is going on for you individually, rather than write off the entire endeavor due to an objective analysis. I worked for years at a cancer center and while there were many times that the work was dry, lonely, alienating, at the end of the day I still felt I was doing something good for the world and that felt really good. There's a lot of ways to apply software, and, maybe more to the point, a lot of ways to integrate it into your life with balance. What about part-time work, so you have more space for other parts of your life you find satisfying? You may find that, with more balance, you enjoy what the work does have to offer, such as being part of a team, being needed, being well-compensated, using your whole intellect, etc. Best wishes

JohnMakin 2y ago
> I would push you to consider that, maybe, something else is going on for you individually, rather than write off the entire endeavor due to an objective analysis. I worked for years at a cancer center and while there were many times that the work was dry, lonely, alienating, at the end of the day I still felt I was doing something good for the world and that felt really good. The difference being that the majority of software jobs are not doing anything remotely good for the world, or if you are, you are a infinitesimally small part of it to where you couldn't possibly derive this same rewarding feeling. I would push you to consider that maybe, your situation is one of privilege that people in the OP's spot are not often in. > There's a lot of ways to apply software, and, maybe more to the point, a lot of ways to integrate it into your life with balance. What about part-time work, so you have more space for other parts of your life you find satisfying? You may find that, with more balance, you enjoy what the work does have to offer, such as being part of a team, being needed, being well-compensated, using your whole intellect, etc. Again, not everyone is afforded an extraordinary privilege of just arbitrarily deciding to work part time. I certainly couldn't. If I could, burnout would be less of an existential risk. It's like telling someone with clinical depression "have you tried cheering up?"
- smokedetector1 2y ago
  > The majority of software jobs are not doing anything remotely good for the world Firstly, this isn't true except in the narrowest sense where only people working on cancer are doing anything good for the world. Contributing to the economy in a non-destructive non-evil way is still good, people need goods and services to live a good life and almost every part of the economy plays some positive role in that. Secondly, my point is that one could find a non-sexy job in tech at a hospital, or in an academic institution, that don't necessarily pay top FAANG salary but, if fulfillment is more important (as it seems to be for the OP), this would be a good option. > Not everyone is afforded an extraordinary privilege of just arbitrarily deciding to work part time. Of course that's true, but I was directing my comment at OP, who said in the blog post that "I quit my last contracting gig in August with £40k in debt, no other income, and only a business idea (it failed). It was still the right decision."
  - JohnMakin 2y ago
    > Contributing to the economy in a non-destructive non-evil way is still good, people need goods and services to live a good life and almost every part of the economy plays some positive role in that. If you look at the impacts of consumption on the third world particularly, and the environment, this is demonstrably false, almost hilariously so. if this lets you sleep better at night, so be it, but I don't pretend I'm doing anything good for the world because I'm not.
gushogg-blake 2y ago
It certainly wasn't meant to be dismissive, can see how it would come across like that though. I kind of rushed this post out, and really should have stopped to think more about what I wanted to say and how - wasn't expecting it to get on the front page. I don't even think "burnout" is the right topic for it, it probably just seemed like the closest title that would get some interest.
bitfilped 2y ago
Software and more broadly IT are soul crushing jobs though, practitioners seem to get upset when that's pointed out but it's still true. Very few other jobs require the always on mentality that comes with IT work. Other folks typically show up, do their jobs, and leave. Very few folks in software/IT are able to have that type of relationship with their work. Maybe it isn't personally draining for you, but it is a very mentally taxing career path overall. This seems to get lost in the broader perspective because a lot of IT practitioners like this type of lifestyle, it doesn't change the fact that it's demanding and I think we can do better in regards to recognizing that as an industry. This also doesn't come across as dismissive to me either, every job has its inherent challenges and we should take time to reflect and recognize the ones present in our own careers.
- smokedetector1 2y ago
  It is very demanding and that needs to be said, but I don't like positioning it as more demanding than other careers. People do a lot more for a lot less money. And people do a lot more for the same amount of money. Every individual should decide what trade off is best for them, but if someone enjoys programming and are good at it, it could potentially be better that they find a way to balance it in their lives rather than writing it off completely.
- mckn1ght 2y ago
  > Other folks typically show up, do their jobs, and leave. I don’t really buy this. When I was in kitchens, I used to agonize over the injustices done by the more psychopathic coworkers/bosses, not to mention the nightmares like you see in some episodes of The Bear. I would also often think about how to improve some situation going on, like kitchen/station layout, workflows, inventory, etc. My wife works in psych and often ruminates on her patients, trying to figure out some thing about them long after she’s done seeing them for the day. And also the same story as me with psychopathic bosses. I’m sure there are just people who genuinely care and then people that don’t give a fuck in any given field. I know I’ve run into plenty of both all across society. I will agree that there is a unique aspect to the mental distress caused by industry software work though, although I don’t want to spill the ink required to elaborate on that here.

JohnMakin 2y ago

> I would push you to consider that, maybe, something else is going on for you individually, rather than write off the entire endeavor due to an objective analysis. I worked for years at a cancer center and while there were many times that the work was dry, lonely, alienating, at the end of the day I still felt I was doing something good for the world and that felt really good. The difference being that the majority of software jobs are not doing anything remotely good for the world, or if you are, you are a infinitesimally small part of it to where you couldn't possibly derive this same rewarding feeling. I would push you to consider that maybe, your situation is one of privilege that people in the OP's spot are not often in. > There's a lot of ways to apply software, and, maybe more to the point, a lot of ways to integrate it into your life with balance. What about part-time work, so you have more space for other parts of your life you find satisfying? You may find that, with more balance, you enjoy what the work does have to offer, such as being part of a team, being needed, being well-compensated, using your whole intellect, etc. Again, not everyone is afforded an extraordinary privilege of just arbitrarily deciding to work part time. I certainly couldn't. If I could, burnout would be less of an existential risk. It's like telling someone with clinical depression "have you tried cheering up?"

smokedetector1 2y ago
> The majority of software jobs are not doing anything remotely good for the world Firstly, this isn't true except in the narrowest sense where only people working on cancer are doing anything good for the world. Contributing to the economy in a non-destructive non-evil way is still good, people need goods and services to live a good life and almost every part of the economy plays some positive role in that. Secondly, my point is that one could find a non-sexy job in tech at a hospital, or in an academic institution, that don't necessarily pay top FAANG salary but, if fulfillment is more important (as it seems to be for the OP), this would be a good option. > Not everyone is afforded an extraordinary privilege of just arbitrarily deciding to work part time. Of course that's true, but I was directing my comment at OP, who said in the blog post that "I quit my last contracting gig in August with £40k in debt, no other income, and only a business idea (it failed). It was still the right decision."
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > Contributing to the economy in a non-destructive non-evil way is still good, people need goods and services to live a good life and almost every part of the economy plays some positive role in that. If you look at the impacts of consumption on the third world particularly, and the environment, this is demonstrably false, almost hilariously so. if this lets you sleep better at night, so be it, but I don't pretend I'm doing anything good for the world because I'm not.

gushogg-blake 2y ago

It certainly wasn't meant to be dismissive, can see how it would come across like that though. I kind of rushed this post out, and really should have stopped to think more about what I wanted to say and how - wasn't expecting it to get on the front page. I don't even think "burnout" is the right topic for it, it probably just seemed like the closest title that would get some interest.

bitfilped 2y ago

Software and more broadly IT are soul crushing jobs though, practitioners seem to get upset when that's pointed out but it's still true. Very few other jobs require the always on mentality that comes with IT work. Other folks typically show up, do their jobs, and leave. Very few folks in software/IT are able to have that type of relationship with their work. Maybe it isn't personally draining for you, but it is a very mentally taxing career path overall. This seems to get lost in the broader perspective because a lot of IT practitioners like this type of lifestyle, it doesn't change the fact that it's demanding and I think we can do better in regards to recognizing that as an industry. This also doesn't come across as dismissive to me either, every job has its inherent challenges and we should take time to reflect and recognize the ones present in our own careers.

smokedetector1 2y ago
It is very demanding and that needs to be said, but I don't like positioning it as more demanding than other careers. People do a lot more for a lot less money. And people do a lot more for the same amount of money. Every individual should decide what trade off is best for them, but if someone enjoys programming and are good at it, it could potentially be better that they find a way to balance it in their lives rather than writing it off completely.
mckn1ght 2y ago
> Other folks typically show up, do their jobs, and leave. I don’t really buy this. When I was in kitchens, I used to agonize over the injustices done by the more psychopathic coworkers/bosses, not to mention the nightmares like you see in some episodes of The Bear. I would also often think about how to improve some situation going on, like kitchen/station layout, workflows, inventory, etc. My wife works in psych and often ruminates on her patients, trying to figure out some thing about them long after she’s done seeing them for the day. And also the same story as me with psychopathic bosses. I’m sure there are just people who genuinely care and then people that don’t give a fuck in any given field. I know I’ve run into plenty of both all across society. I will agree that there is a unique aspect to the mental distress caused by industry software work though, although I don’t want to spill the ink required to elaborate on that here.