3 ms·

[flagged]

by vintermann 2y ago

[flagged]

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Culturally ingrained toxic positivity?
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  Depression is rare when you have to spend most of your day walking water. Or maybe it presents differently.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
"a reasonable way to feel given what you've been through" Isn't our brain made of chemicals of all kinds, and how we 'feel' is based on many chemical interactions, and so the "a reasonable way to feel given what you've been through", is the brains natural 'reasonable way to feel' as a reaction given some environment it is in. So this is just measuring that reaction. Maybe think of it more as analyzing why things are, and not as fixing an error. Like science does. Measure it.
- airstrike 2y ago
  That's a fallacy, unless you believe the brain is not greater than the sum of its parts.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    Alternatively, the opposing view is a "fallacy" in that sense, unless you believe the brain is magical and doesn't obey the laws of physics and chemistry.
    - airstrike 2y ago
      You needn't believe in magic, only in emergent properties well within the constraints of science.
      - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        The whole water is wet is an 'emergent' property. This is true, linking emergent properties to the underlying smaller scale can be very difficult. Just not impossible. There is recent work on how water molecules interact that can explain 'wetness'. It is difficult, not impossible.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        "Emergent" properties of the brain aren't magic, they're just multiple chemical and other physical processes working together. Processes which can be measured and altered by chemical and physical means.
  - chaos_emergent 2y ago
    What you’re describing is emergence, but it doesn’t mean that an emergent system doesn’t have mechanistic underpinnings. Your body gives rise to consciousness, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t treat blood pressure with medication.
    - airstrike 2y ago
      It does mean that not all of the body's behavior can be explained by blood pressure. Emergent properties are not necessarily addressable (or describable, in the case of the OP) at the underlying level.
      - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        People used to think an Atom was the smallest particle, then they found Protons/Electrons etc.., then they found quarks. The brain is complicated, that doesn't mean we can't measure it and try and understand it. Right now people are just 'It's impossible, it must be a soul, or something mystical' how else could it be the way it is?
        airstrike 2y ago
        > Right now people are just 'It's impossible, it must be a soul, or something mystical' how else could it be the way it is? I haven't argued that at all and I'm not saying we can't measure it and understand it. I'm saying reducing it to "just chemicals" is missing the forest for the trees and goes against understanding it better. Might as well reduce it to just atoms, or just protons/electrons, or just quarks... Do you see what I mean? Why are chemicals where you draw the line?
        FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        You are right. I was just trying to come up with a generic term for 'the physical world'. Neurons are made up of molecules, Neurotransmitters are molecules, a 'chemical'. Even the spark of the brain, isn't it just calcium ions carrying the charge. Guess I was just off-hand thinking that 'chemicals' was 'reasonable' cutoff point from going too small, but small enough. It was off the cuff scaling, I have no real evidence where we would stop on the sliding scale from larger emergent properties. People that go smaller, to quarks, and throw in Quantum Mechanics are usually not super serious. It gets woo-woo.
Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
This is not an allowed opinion in Western thought, regardless of its obviousness.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  Psychiatry is the gift that keeps on giving. The strangest part of some of these mental diseases is how they're defined in terms of other people. You're ill because you fail to adapt to society. They diagnose a person with attention defict because he can't tolerate the government's mass education system. Can't sit still and that disrupts class and gets the guy sent to the principal who calls their parents and refers them to a doctor who prescribes medications to make it stop. Before being medicated, that exact same person used to go home and write computer code nonstop. Ten hours straight, he is a machine. There are organic causes for this, neurodevelopmental causes. There are treatments. But the truth is what everyone truly wants is to make the guy fit into society's mold. It's easier for them that way.
  - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    The Nash equilibrium of "treating 'everyone' 'fairly'" so we ignore the ones that we will depend on to continue to have the "privilege" to do continue to do so is an existential irony that will be referred to the "Filter of Nerfed Excellence" by the next sentient sap.
  - safety1st 2y ago
    The therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist cannot make society conform to the patient. They may, however, be able to convince the patient that conforming to society is not so bad. In my experience therapists are genuinely attempting to alleviate the suffering of their patients, and reducing the conflict between the patient's expectations and society's may very well be a route to that. They are not there to teach you how to live a successful life, or find your purpose, or be your own amazing snowflake self, or code more. They have been trained to diagnose specific disorders and treat those disorders with a particular set of tools, which mainly boil down to drugs and a couple of talk therapies. If you experience remission of your symptoms they were successful at their job. Considering how time and expertise intensive the existing non-drug forms of therapy are, there is no realistic version of this discipline where they can personalize the therapy in the manner you seem to be suggesting. In many cases the only realistic option is to drug the patient because they have a high case load, this will reliably make the patient suffer 20% less and that may be enough to prevent suicide.
dang 2y ago
Many of us agree with you, but if you could make your substantive points here without snark or shallow putdowns, that would be good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[flagged]

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

Culturally ingrained toxic positivity?

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
Depression is rare when you have to spend most of your day walking water. Or maybe it presents differently.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

"a reasonable way to feel given what you've been through" Isn't our brain made of chemicals of all kinds, and how we 'feel' is based on many chemical interactions, and so the "a reasonable way to feel given what you've been through", is the brains natural 'reasonable way to feel' as a reaction given some environment it is in. So this is just measuring that reaction. Maybe think of it more as analyzing why things are, and not as fixing an error. Like science does. Measure it.

airstrike 2y ago
That's a fallacy, unless you believe the brain is not greater than the sum of its parts.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  Alternatively, the opposing view is a "fallacy" in that sense, unless you believe the brain is magical and doesn't obey the laws of physics and chemistry.
  - airstrike 2y ago
    You needn't believe in magic, only in emergent properties well within the constraints of science.
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      The whole water is wet is an 'emergent' property. This is true, linking emergent properties to the underlying smaller scale can be very difficult. Just not impossible. There is recent work on how water molecules interact that can explain 'wetness'. It is difficult, not impossible.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      "Emergent" properties of the brain aren't magic, they're just multiple chemical and other physical processes working together. Processes which can be measured and altered by chemical and physical means.
- chaos_emergent 2y ago
  What you’re describing is emergence, but it doesn’t mean that an emergent system doesn’t have mechanistic underpinnings. Your body gives rise to consciousness, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t treat blood pressure with medication.
  - airstrike 2y ago
    It does mean that not all of the body's behavior can be explained by blood pressure. Emergent properties are not necessarily addressable (or describable, in the case of the OP) at the underlying level.
    - FrustratedMonky 2y ago
      People used to think an Atom was the smallest particle, then they found Protons/Electrons etc.., then they found quarks. The brain is complicated, that doesn't mean we can't measure it and try and understand it. Right now people are just 'It's impossible, it must be a soul, or something mystical' how else could it be the way it is?
      - airstrike 2y ago
        > Right now people are just 'It's impossible, it must be a soul, or something mystical' how else could it be the way it is? I haven't argued that at all and I'm not saying we can't measure it and understand it. I'm saying reducing it to "just chemicals" is missing the forest for the trees and goes against understanding it better. Might as well reduce it to just atoms, or just protons/electrons, or just quarks... Do you see what I mean? Why are chemicals where you draw the line?
        FrustratedMonky 2y ago
        You are right. I was just trying to come up with a generic term for 'the physical world'. Neurons are made up of molecules, Neurotransmitters are molecules, a 'chemical'. Even the spark of the brain, isn't it just calcium ions carrying the charge. Guess I was just off-hand thinking that 'chemicals' was 'reasonable' cutoff point from going too small, but small enough. It was off the cuff scaling, I have no real evidence where we would stop on the sliding scale from larger emergent properties. People that go smaller, to quarks, and throw in Quantum Mechanics are usually not super serious. It gets woo-woo.

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago

This is not an allowed opinion in Western thought, regardless of its obviousness.

matheusmoreira 2y ago
Psychiatry is the gift that keeps on giving. The strangest part of some of these mental diseases is how they're defined in terms of other people. You're ill because you fail to adapt to society. They diagnose a person with attention defict because he can't tolerate the government's mass education system. Can't sit still and that disrupts class and gets the guy sent to the principal who calls their parents and refers them to a doctor who prescribes medications to make it stop. Before being medicated, that exact same person used to go home and write computer code nonstop. Ten hours straight, he is a machine. There are organic causes for this, neurodevelopmental causes. There are treatments. But the truth is what everyone truly wants is to make the guy fit into society's mold. It's easier for them that way.
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  The Nash equilibrium of "treating 'everyone' 'fairly'" so we ignore the ones that we will depend on to continue to have the "privilege" to do continue to do so is an existential irony that will be referred to the "Filter of Nerfed Excellence" by the next sentient sap.
- safety1st 2y ago
  The therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist cannot make society conform to the patient. They may, however, be able to convince the patient that conforming to society is not so bad. In my experience therapists are genuinely attempting to alleviate the suffering of their patients, and reducing the conflict between the patient's expectations and society's may very well be a route to that. They are not there to teach you how to live a successful life, or find your purpose, or be your own amazing snowflake self, or code more. They have been trained to diagnose specific disorders and treat those disorders with a particular set of tools, which mainly boil down to drugs and a couple of talk therapies. If you experience remission of your symptoms they were successful at their job. Considering how time and expertise intensive the existing non-drug forms of therapy are, there is no realistic version of this discipline where they can personalize the therapy in the manner you seem to be suggesting. In many cases the only realistic option is to drug the patient because they have a high case load, this will reliably make the patient suffer 20% less and that may be enough to prevent suicide.

dang 2y ago

Many of us agree with you, but if you could make your substantive points here without snark or shallow putdowns, that would be good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html