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So you are saying that females are incapable of speaking up for themselves? Perhaps a legion of White Knights should lead the way? Least the feminist movement b

by verroq 14y ago

So you are saying that females are incapable of speaking up for themselves? Perhaps a legion of White Knights should lead the way? Least the feminist movement be lead by a man, if females don't have the resolve to help themselves, then I'd say they can't be helped. Sure, you may call me naive to suggest the obvious solution, but do you have any evidence that it won't work?

drivebyacct2 14y ago
I'm sorry that the absurdity of your implications are not more obvious. I don't have the patience to spell it out for you, maybe someone else does. You're in denial about the reality of the social forces that have created the gender inequality in the tech industry. It's a result of the actions of males, and it makes a lot of intuitive sense to address the problem there. Do you understand how absurd the position that you've backed yourself into sounds? The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? Women should speak up for themselves? Oh really, you mean like the article we're discussing. Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out?
- verroq 14y ago
  >The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? I never said this. You made it up. Women standing up for themselves is not mutually exclusive to stamping down on asshats. Funnily enough though, I figured you'd counter with something as vapid and baseless as >Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out? You say it like no slave uprisings ever erupted in the course of history. But this is a strawman, unless women are slaves in our society. Some discrimination in tech hardly equates to a life of servitude.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Then what is your point in this conversation? All you've done is act like women aren't doing enough and defending the assumptions that lead to that discrimination in tech by placing men above women and defaulting to "he". You don't even understand why that's a problem after this discussion has been warped into something completely and entirely absurd. I mean, you don't even understand how offensive it is to sit there and say "I don't care if they're bullied and harassed, they should do it because they should speak up for themselves". Is that your response to all issues? Gay kids in school should learn to fight their bullies to affect change? Sure, it's a nice idea, I'm sure everyone on HN would love for everyone to feel so empowered, but you must be in one-helluva privileged class to sit in your armchair and hand out recommendations like that without any acknowledge of the personal implications. Again, precisely as the article talks about. Your posts read, one after another, as someone who is really trying to say "Eh, it's not an issue [for me], if you think it is, you go do something about it".
    - verroq 14y ago
      I was encouraging the author to not be afraid to reveal that she is a woman. I also find your "women must be helped" attitude offensive.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        >I was encouraging the author to not be afraid to reveal that she is a woman. Then you missed the entire point of the article, or you're more naive than I could have guessed. Again, you act as if "revealing that she is a woman" is without consequence. Or else your "encouragement" is just completely empty and still has no appreciation for the abuse that often results from such a revelation. (For the third time, as the article talks about). >I also find your "women must be helped" attitude offensive. If that's what you took away, you haven't been paying a single bit of attention. How many times have I specifically talked about trying to address how men's actions have affected women in tech. Or are you really implying that "We should evaluate how we alienate women" to be "all women are helpless". I find that gross misrepresentation to be offensive and dishonest.
        verroq 14y ago
        >Again, you act as if "revealing that she is a woman" is without consequence You can't have your cake and eat it too. There has to be sacrifices for the long run. >How many times have I specifically talked about trying to address how men's actions have affected women in tech. Or are you really implying that "We should evaluate how we alienate women" to be "all women are helpless". So buried inside all the cynicism and angst this was you were trying to articulate?
roguecoder 14y ago
Yes I have evidence it won't work: the only person who has control over that individual's behavior and beliefs is that person themselves. You can't change one group's behavior by focusing exclusively on a different group. As for your vapid White Knight accusation, I'm not speaking up for women, I'm speaking up for myself against your illogical assertions. Lack of reason offends me. Women are welcome to do whatever they want and they certainly don't need you telling them they are Doing It Wrong. I believe women should be welcome to highlight their gender or not, because in neither case does their behavior directly hurt me so it's none of my business or yours. I do think men demanding that they do one or the other are way out of line, though, and people taking that as an excuse for why they ignore their existence are just acting scummy. The obvious solution is for men to stop assuming everyone is male. That, in fact, has nothing to do with women at all and isn't their problem to solve.

by verroq 14y ago

drivebyacct2 14y ago

I'm sorry that the absurdity of your implications are not more obvious. I don't have the patience to spell it out for you, maybe someone else does. You're in denial about the reality of the social forces that have created the gender inequality in the tech industry. It's a result of the actions of males, and it makes a lot of intuitive sense to address the problem there. Do you understand how absurd the position that you've backed yourself into sounds? The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? Women should speak up for themselves? Oh really, you mean like the article we're discussing. Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out?

verroq 14y ago
>The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? I never said this. You made it up. Women standing up for themselves is not mutually exclusive to stamping down on asshats. Funnily enough though, I figured you'd counter with something as vapid and baseless as >Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out? You say it like no slave uprisings ever erupted in the course of history. But this is a strawman, unless women are slaves in our society. Some discrimination in tech hardly equates to a life of servitude.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Then what is your point in this conversation? All you've done is act like women aren't doing enough and defending the assumptions that lead to that discrimination in tech by placing men above women and defaulting to "he". You don't even understand why that's a problem after this discussion has been warped into something completely and entirely absurd. I mean, you don't even understand how offensive it is to sit there and say "I don't care if they're bullied and harassed, they should do it because they should speak up for themselves". Is that your response to all issues? Gay kids in school should learn to fight their bullies to affect change? Sure, it's a nice idea, I'm sure everyone on HN would love for everyone to feel so empowered, but you must be in one-helluva privileged class to sit in your armchair and hand out recommendations like that without any acknowledge of the personal implications. Again, precisely as the article talks about. Your posts read, one after another, as someone who is really trying to say "Eh, it's not an issue [for me], if you think it is, you go do something about it".
  - verroq 14y ago
    I was encouraging the author to not be afraid to reveal that she is a woman. I also find your "women must be helped" attitude offensive.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      >I was encouraging the author to not be afraid to reveal that she is a woman. Then you missed the entire point of the article, or you're more naive than I could have guessed. Again, you act as if "revealing that she is a woman" is without consequence. Or else your "encouragement" is just completely empty and still has no appreciation for the abuse that often results from such a revelation. (For the third time, as the article talks about). >I also find your "women must be helped" attitude offensive. If that's what you took away, you haven't been paying a single bit of attention. How many times have I specifically talked about trying to address how men's actions have affected women in tech. Or are you really implying that "We should evaluate how we alienate women" to be "all women are helpless". I find that gross misrepresentation to be offensive and dishonest.
      - verroq 14y ago
        >Again, you act as if "revealing that she is a woman" is without consequence You can't have your cake and eat it too. There has to be sacrifices for the long run. >How many times have I specifically talked about trying to address how men's actions have affected women in tech. Or are you really implying that "We should evaluate how we alienate women" to be "all women are helpless". So buried inside all the cynicism and angst this was you were trying to articulate?

roguecoder 14y ago

Yes I have evidence it won't work: the only person who has control over that individual's behavior and beliefs is that person themselves. You can't change one group's behavior by focusing exclusively on a different group. As for your vapid White Knight accusation, I'm not speaking up for women, I'm speaking up for myself against your illogical assertions. Lack of reason offends me. Women are welcome to do whatever they want and they certainly don't need you telling them they are Doing It Wrong. I believe women should be welcome to highlight their gender or not, because in neither case does their behavior directly hurt me so it's none of my business or yours. I do think men demanding that they do one or the other are way out of line, though, and people taking that as an excuse for why they ignore their existence are just acting scummy. The obvious solution is for men to stop assuming everyone is male. That, in fact, has nothing to do with women at all and isn't their problem to solve.