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Humans desire narratives to understand the world, but the world is too complex to be captured into reality. Those arch-theories already exist in the theories l
by corimaith 2y ago
Humans desire narratives to understand the world, but the world is too complex to be captured into reality.
Those arch-theories already exist in the theories like Dialectical Materialism, or worse, Fascism, and with terrible consequences once they confronted reality.
The circumstantial perspective of (Liberal Western) Modernism & Postmodernism may have it's flaws, but it has offered more practical results in policymaking than not.
- keiferski 2y agoI’d describe those things (along with most traditional worldviews) as failed attempts to encapsulate reality into an over simplified story. But just because they failed and had bad consequences doesn’t mean that the attempt itself is misguided or impossible. Otherwise, the alternative seems to be an endlessly growing malaise, which isn’t much of a solution either. In fact, I think the lack of such an attempt to make a coherent story is what draws people to the over simplified ones in the first place.
- MichaelZuo 2y agoHow do you know they weren’t ‘attempts to make a coherent story’ that turned destructive?
- keiferski 2y agoI don’t, but what is your alternative suggestion? What important things don’t also have the potential to end badly? Unless your position is a kind of Daoist quietism, I’m not sure what you are suggesting instead.
- MichaelZuo 2y agoWhy do you believe such alternative suggestions exist? Maybe there aren’t any such that are risk free. So you have to evaluate both the potential upsides and downsides to see if it’s a net positive and worthwhile risk to take.
- keiferski 2y agoThen I'm really not sure what exactly you are arguing for or against. The act of making a story that attempts to give meaning to human life and society? How would you evaluate that for potential upsides and downsides, and what are you comparing it against?
- lupire 2y agoWhy is "story", which is known to be an accurate model, the preferred model? Why not non-linear dynamical system, epigram, clerihew, or haiku?
- keiferski 2y agoProbably because most of those don't line up with how humans experience the world. Storytelling has a long history in the human experience, while haiku or epigrams aren't really the sort of thing one can "wrap" a life around.
- nvegater 2y agoHumans experience the world as a story, but that is not necessarily the most human way to wrap a life around as you are implying. In some cases there are more powerful frameworks. For example Hitler is wrapped (by most of the world at least) around the damage and pain he caused not around his story. Stories are mostly fine, but thinking that we should strive for that to being the main perspective is limiting.
- piva00 2y ago> For example Hitler is wrapped (by most of the world at least) around the damage and pain he caused not around his story. Isn't this exactly part of Hitler's story though? I think I'm misunderstanding what your concept of "story" means.
- MichaelZuo 2y agoI never said anyone had good prospects to complete such an evaluation in a single lifetime… in fact it’s very unlikely to happen. But without that it’s hard to see how such proposals have any merit at all, considering the historical track record.
- watwut 2y agoBoth communism and nazism provided simplified narrative stories.
- keiferski 2y agoYes, that's why I called them "failed attempts to encapsulate reality into an over simplified story."
- professor_x 2y agoThis sounds like a non true scotsman. If large societies buying into a story doesn’t qualify it as a success, what does? M
- keiferski 2y agoWhy would that be the qualification for success? I didn’t write that “everyone believing it” was the marker of success, so I don’t know why that would be relevant. In another comment thread, I wrote that a story is needed which combines accurate scientific information with a human purpose in the world. Those examples quite obviously didn’t have scientific views of the world.
- watwut 2y agoBy that standard, successful societies are the ones without a story. While the ones with story are autocratic and dictatorships.
- goatlover 2y agoThose societies not being failures as a result. They both fail to properly understand politics and economics. Also sociology.
- bossyTeacher 2y agoBy that token, every attempt to encapsulate reality into a simplified story is successful until it fails. Not a very useful thing to bring to the table
- Nasrudith 2y agoNarratives are unfortunately intrinsically very good tools for sociopaths to manipulate people. That makes them an attractive nuisance for sociopaths to gain at very best, just like how large piles of uninvested money serves as an attractive nuisance for thieves. Judged more harshly, narratives are a tool whose purpose is the promotion of delusion.
- ximm 2y agoding ding ding we have a godwin