3 ms·
That’s not certain. Someone in a persistent vegetative state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetative_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetative_state) may
by kstrauser 2y ago
That’s not certain. Someone in a persistent vegetative state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetative_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetative_state) may open their eyes and move them, all while lacking the parts of their brain that would consciously trigger those movements.
There’s alive, and there’s living. It’s possibly for someone’s body to be alive even though the person is completely and forever gone.
Not saying that’s what happened here, only that someone appearing to be looking around doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a person inside that body choosing to do so.
Personal source: I saw a beloved family member appear to look around, even while an EEG showed that there was zero activity in the parts of her hurt brain that we’d think of as “her”. It’s terrible to behold. But yes, it can also be just a common reflex.
(I have zero intent to defend the hospital. I’m replying to that 1 specific thing you said, but am absolutely not saying the hospital was in the right.)
- rapidaneurism 2y agoI would not class someone in a persistent vegetative state as brain dead. My understanding is that for organ harvesting to take place the subject has to be brain dead.
- kstrauser 2y agoSure, and I’m far from an authority on these things, which are fortunately way outside my usual experience. I don’t know all the policies or laws or ethical guidance involved. My sole point was that someone opening their eyes and seeming to look around isn’t solid proof that the person is deliberately trying to take in their surroundings. By analogy, a football player laying on the ground with their arm up could be waving to the audience, but they could also be showing the fencing response to head trauma. It doesn’t mean they’re intentionally sticking their hand up. It could be the case, but it’s not proof of it.
- OutOfHere 2y agoI acknowledge the point, but whether it is reflex or valid brain activity in a vegetative person is up for debate. Regardless, a vegetative state is never a qualifiable reason for harvesting organs! The person is still alive. At the very least, the person should naturally be allowed to die. If they have family, their permission also matters. P.S. Ambien (zolpidem) is a well studied drug to help treat a vegetative state. There may also exist other such drugs.
- kstrauser 2y agoI agree with that and didn’t mean to argue against you. Just, from personal experience, looking around doesn’t have to mean “hey guys, what’s up?” I’d give all the world to make it so.
- OutOfHere 2y agoWas the person you know even given zolpidem or a similar attempted treatment? It could take a while though for it to work.
- kstrauser 2y agoIt would not have been helpful. She’d been deprived oxygen too long and critical anatomy was no longer functional. That’s the kind of thing I’m totally willing to discuss in detail in a more private setting, but that’s about as far as I’ll go here. Except to add, fuck lupus. Miss ya, sis.
- tessierashpool9 2y agoit might very well have meant just that. i think that is also the point of who you respond to. eeg is a very primitive method to measure what is going on in the brain.
- rossant 2y agoWould a person in that state be declared dead and eligible for organ donation?
- kstrauser 2y agoI’m not sure. My wife and I both have advance directives saying that if we’re in such a state, and medical opinion is that it’s irreversible (eg with head trauma that can’t possibly be healed), let us die quickly and give out our organs while they’re still healthy. If I’m not coming back, use whatever parts of me can help someone else. But, uh, make sure I’m actually gone first plz thx.