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> I'm fine with a 2 state solution if that's what the Palestinans want. My issue is that Israel is unlikely to follow the rules given their current behavior so

by edanm 2y ago

> I'm fine with a 2 state solution if that's what the Palestinans want. My issue is that Israel is unlikely to follow the rules given their current behavior so why not just make it 1 state with equal rights? Is that really so scary? Equal rights? YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel, one way or another. If that is the only option, it is one that will never be accepted. I don't understand why you can't see that, unless you think you know better than almost everyone else that lives in the area or has studied the area. (I'm totally open to different arrangements like A Land For All, which aim to make an Israeli/Palestinian federation, basically a two-state solution that has deals in place like the EU which would allow citizens to move between the countries.)

ta20240528 2y ago
> basically a two-state solution A genuine second state? One with its own defence force, choice of allies, no blockades, selection of weapons (all the way up the periodic table), etc. I.e. one with the same rights as Israel's citizens grant themselves, or a crippled bantustan? Because equal is equal.
- edanm 2y ago
  Yes, of course I think they should have their own state like any other state. That's what a two state solution means. I think there will need to be some security guarantees to prevent it from turning out similarly to Gaza. I have no idea what that should look like, from either side's perspective - but that's part of the negotiations for actually making the two states. And I'm sure there will have to be similar security guarantees from the Israeli side, so Israel doesn't just decide after two weeks to invade because of a random terror attack.
hmcq6 2y ago
> YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? Eww don't pinkwash genocide. Those beepers didn't discriminate between LGBTQ+ targets and neither did the mass starvation campaign (https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_famine https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_fa...). It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. It's clear Israel is fine with discrimination. > Forty-eight percent of Israeli Jews said they agreed with the statement that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, where they make up 19 percent of the population of 8.4 million. > In addition, about 8 in 10 Arabs complained of heavy discrimination in Israeli society against Muslims, the largest religious minority, while 79 percent of Jews questioned said Jewish citizens deserved preferential treatment. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-jews-want-to-expel-arabs-survey-finds-idUSKCN0WA1HI/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-... And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. > And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. > You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire.
- edanm 2y ago
  > Eww don't pinkwash genocide. You're just not responding to anything I actually said or anything I actually believe. You asked why not give Palestinians "equal rights", meaning make them citizens of Israel with voting rights. I answered with why I think this would effectively roll back many liberal values of Israel, including LGBT rights, not to mention be an enormous risk for Jewish Israelis. That has nothing to do with pinkwashing anything, I didn't say anything about the war (or what you call "the genocide"). You just haven't responded to my point, at all. > It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. The areas under full Israeli control are great for the gay community. Not perfect, and some areas of Israel are better than others, but far better than many countries. It seems like in your zeal to only say bad things about Israel you refuse to actually see reality as it is. > And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. I didn't forget, but I don't know anything about this topic at all and didn't have time to look into it. I don't comment on things I know nothing about, no matter what "side" it's on. > That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. Ok I was speaking with some hyperbole, but historically, except for the last 80 years, Jews have been discriminated against, killed or kicked out of most countries of which they are minorities. Anyway, I just don't understand what is your actual view about the world, other than "Israel bad". What do you think would happen if 7 million Palestinians become citizens of Israel and are granted the vote? What does that state look like in twenty years? That's what you're advocating, I want to understand what you think would happen. > A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire. Look, I'm in favor of a ceasefire. You are too. I'm in favor of arriving at a peaceful solution that both sides are OK with. You are too. The main thing I was pushing back on in my comment, was the idea of a one-state solution being anything other than ridiculous, whether in the guise of a new state, or by just "giving Palestinians equal rights" in Israel as it exists. If you want to push for peace - it's worth advocating for things that a) have some chance of happening, and b) would not lead immediately to a situation that is 100x worse for everyone involved. That's why I advocate a two-state solution, as does almost anyone else seriously involved in pushing for peace.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by edanm 2y ago

ta20240528 2y ago

> basically a two-state solution A genuine second state? One with its own defence force, choice of allies, no blockades, selection of weapons (all the way up the periodic table), etc. I.e. one with the same rights as Israel's citizens grant themselves, or a crippled bantustan? Because equal is equal.

edanm 2y ago
Yes, of course I think they should have their own state like any other state. That's what a two state solution means. I think there will need to be some security guarantees to prevent it from turning out similarly to Gaza. I have no idea what that should look like, from either side's perspective - but that's part of the negotiations for actually making the two states. And I'm sure there will have to be similar security guarantees from the Israeli side, so Israel doesn't just decide after two weeks to invade because of a random terror attack.

hmcq6 2y ago

> YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? Eww don't pinkwash genocide. Those beepers didn't discriminate between LGBTQ+ targets and neither did the mass starvation campaign (https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_famine https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_fa...). It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. It's clear Israel is fine with discrimination. > Forty-eight percent of Israeli Jews said they agreed with the statement that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, where they make up 19 percent of the population of 8.4 million. > In addition, about 8 in 10 Arabs complained of heavy discrimination in Israeli society against Muslims, the largest religious minority, while 79 percent of Jews questioned said Jewish citizens deserved preferential treatment. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-jews-want-to-expel-arabs-survey-finds-idUSKCN0WA1HI/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-... And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. > And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. > You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire.

edanm 2y ago
> Eww don't pinkwash genocide. You're just not responding to anything I actually said or anything I actually believe. You asked why not give Palestinians "equal rights", meaning make them citizens of Israel with voting rights. I answered with why I think this would effectively roll back many liberal values of Israel, including LGBT rights, not to mention be an enormous risk for Jewish Israelis. That has nothing to do with pinkwashing anything, I didn't say anything about the war (or what you call "the genocide"). You just haven't responded to my point, at all. > It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. The areas under full Israeli control are great for the gay community. Not perfect, and some areas of Israel are better than others, but far better than many countries. It seems like in your zeal to only say bad things about Israel you refuse to actually see reality as it is. > And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. I didn't forget, but I don't know anything about this topic at all and didn't have time to look into it. I don't comment on things I know nothing about, no matter what "side" it's on. > That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. Ok I was speaking with some hyperbole, but historically, except for the last 80 years, Jews have been discriminated against, killed or kicked out of most countries of which they are minorities. Anyway, I just don't understand what is your actual view about the world, other than "Israel bad". What do you think would happen if 7 million Palestinians become citizens of Israel and are granted the vote? What does that state look like in twenty years? That's what you're advocating, I want to understand what you think would happen. > A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire. Look, I'm in favor of a ceasefire. You are too. I'm in favor of arriving at a peaceful solution that both sides are OK with. You are too. The main thing I was pushing back on in my comment, was the idea of a one-state solution being anything other than ridiculous, whether in the guise of a new state, or by just "giving Palestinians equal rights" in Israel as it exists. If you want to push for peace - it's worth advocating for things that a) have some chance of happening, and b) would not lead immediately to a situation that is 100x worse for everyone involved. That's why I advocate a two-state solution, as does almost anyone else seriously involved in pushing for peace.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]