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Occupation is not tautological to colonization but occupation can be the first step to colonization. > You said that a two state solution (which Palestinians s

by hmcq6 2y ago

Occupation is not tautological to colonization but occupation can be the first step to colonization. > You said that a two state solution (which Palestinians so far have never agreed to) is just a continuation of colonization. It is a continuation of the colonization. It is also something the Palestinians *have* agreed to, that's what the Oslo Accords are. > On September 13, 1993, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Negotiator Mahmoud Abbas signed a Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, commonly referred to as the “Oslo Accord,” at the White House. Israel accepted the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace. Both sides agreed that a Palestinian Authority (PA) would be established and assume governing responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over a five-year period. Then, permanent status talks on the issues of borders, refugees, and Jerusalem would be held. I'm fine with a 2 state solution if that's what the Palestinans want. My issue is that Israel is unlikely to follow the rules given their current behavior so why not just make it 1 state with equal rights? Is that really so scary? Equal rights? But none of that matters because the first thing that has to happen before even a 2 state solution is a ceasefire.

edanm 2y ago
> I'm fine with a 2 state solution if that's what the Palestinans want. My issue is that Israel is unlikely to follow the rules given their current behavior so why not just make it 1 state with equal rights? Is that really so scary? Equal rights? YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel, one way or another. If that is the only option, it is one that will never be accepted. I don't understand why you can't see that, unless you think you know better than almost everyone else that lives in the area or has studied the area. (I'm totally open to different arrangements like A Land For All, which aim to make an Israeli/Palestinian federation, basically a two-state solution that has deals in place like the EU which would allow citizens to move between the countries.)
- ta20240528 2y ago
  > basically a two-state solution A genuine second state? One with its own defence force, choice of allies, no blockades, selection of weapons (all the way up the periodic table), etc. I.e. one with the same rights as Israel's citizens grant themselves, or a crippled bantustan? Because equal is equal.
  - edanm 2y ago
    Yes, of course I think they should have their own state like any other state. That's what a two state solution means. I think there will need to be some security guarantees to prevent it from turning out similarly to Gaza. I have no idea what that should look like, from either side's perspective - but that's part of the negotiations for actually making the two states. And I'm sure there will have to be similar security guarantees from the Israeli side, so Israel doesn't just decide after two weeks to invade because of a random terror attack.
- hmcq6 2y ago
  > YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? Eww don't pinkwash genocide. Those beepers didn't discriminate between LGBTQ+ targets and neither did the mass starvation campaign (https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_famine https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_fa...). It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. It's clear Israel is fine with discrimination. > Forty-eight percent of Israeli Jews said they agreed with the statement that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, where they make up 19 percent of the population of 8.4 million. > In addition, about 8 in 10 Arabs complained of heavy discrimination in Israeli society against Muslims, the largest religious minority, while 79 percent of Jews questioned said Jewish citizens deserved preferential treatment. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-jews-want-to-expel-arabs-survey-finds-idUSKCN0WA1HI/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-... And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. > And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. > You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire.

by hmcq6 2y ago

edanm 2y ago

> I'm fine with a 2 state solution if that's what the Palestinans want. My issue is that Israel is unlikely to follow the rules given their current behavior so why not just make it 1 state with equal rights? Is that really so scary? Equal rights? YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel, one way or another. If that is the only option, it is one that will never be accepted. I don't understand why you can't see that, unless you think you know better than almost everyone else that lives in the area or has studied the area. (I'm totally open to different arrangements like A Land For All, which aim to make an Israeli/Palestinian federation, basically a two-state solution that has deals in place like the EU which would allow citizens to move between the countries.)

ta20240528 2y ago
> basically a two-state solution A genuine second state? One with its own defence force, choice of allies, no blockades, selection of weapons (all the way up the periodic table), etc. I.e. one with the same rights as Israel's citizens grant themselves, or a crippled bantustan? Because equal is equal.
- edanm 2y ago
  Yes, of course I think they should have their own state like any other state. That's what a two state solution means. I think there will need to be some security guarantees to prevent it from turning out similarly to Gaza. I have no idea what that should look like, from either side's perspective - but that's part of the negotiations for actually making the two states. And I'm sure there will have to be similar security guarantees from the Israeli side, so Israel doesn't just decide after two weeks to invade because of a random terror attack.
hmcq6 2y ago
> YES! I don't know how else to say this. Giving equal rights which would effectively double the voting base with people who fundamentally oppose many things you think are important is terrifying. Again, if you were LGBTQ in Israel, and I told you we're bringing in 100% more voters who mostly think homosexuality is a sin and could now vote to make it illegal, wouldn't you think it's a bad idea? Eww don't pinkwash genocide. Those beepers didn't discriminate between LGBTQ+ targets and neither did the mass starvation campaign (https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_famine https://www.btselem.org/publications/202404_manufacturing_fa...). It's wild to imply Israelis are great to the gay community. It's clear Israel is fine with discrimination. > Forty-eight percent of Israeli Jews said they agreed with the statement that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, where they make up 19 percent of the population of 8.4 million. > In addition, about 8 in 10 Arabs complained of heavy discrimination in Israeli society against Muslims, the largest religious minority, while 79 percent of Jews questioned said Jewish citizens deserved preferential treatment. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-jews-want-to-expel-arabs-survey-finds-idUSKCN0WA1HI/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/about-half-of-israeli-... And don't forget that I cited to you how Israel did eugenics on the Ethiopian Jewish community until at least 2013. > And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that the the new state acts like every other state that has a Jewish minority, and eventually decides to kill the Jews. Made even more likely given the years of animosity between the two peoples. That is just mass hysteria. There are many diaspora Jews who feel safe where they currently live and acting like all Jews think Israel is the only safe place for them is actual antisemitism. Jews are not a monolith. > You are again and again asking if it's really so bad to do something that 99% of people, including almost all peace activists, say will end in the destruction of the Jews in Israel A ceasefire? I just told you hours ago that the first thing I really care about is a ceasefire.