6 ms·

AWS CEO tells employees to quit if they do not want to RTO

33 points by belval 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Head to Microsoft y’all, they have competent management at the helm. https://www.statista.com/chart/18819/worldwide-market-share-of-leading-cloud-infrastructure-service-providers/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18819/worldwide-market-share-... https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft/microsoft-hasnt-chased-amazon-back-to-the-office-its-even-cutting-back-on-office-space/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft/microsoft-ha...
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  From one evil empire to another?!
  - angoragoats 2y ago
    If you’re gonna work for the evil empire (which does have its perks), you might as well work for the one that isn’t run by morons.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  I am not sure I agree with the sentiment. Maybe their management is better on this one issue of remote work. But Microsoft’s competency in terms of their financial results is not deserved. They still do all the things they did in the 90s that got them into trouble. Look at the bundling of Teams and Office. Or forced ads in start menus. Or rampant use of dark patterns to get you to use their products. Or the lack of security updates for Windows 10 starting next year, which will force people into Windows 11 and privacy/security violating Recall. A lot of the financial success we’re seeing is Microsoft taking existing enterprise contracts and using them to push new things onto companies repeatedly, as a way to make money. In other words, their existing capital and distribution and captive audience is why they see success, not their “competent management”.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    None of this impacts practitioners receiving generous compensation and flexible working arrangements from Microsoft today, both of which are in short supply at AWS. I leave antitrust to the regulators (who should pursue antitrust behavior), but if you need a place to flee to from the AWS dumpster fire, it exists. Microsoft management is competent because it treats workers like adults and with respect. AWS does not.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Yeah, but then you have to use Windows all day long. It's better to be a janitor cleaning toilets than to suffer this way.
  - blinded 2y ago
    Pretty sure you can use a mac.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      That's even worse.
      - mmmBacon 2y ago
        [flagged]
bigfatkitten 2y ago
Or chill out until you get a PIP and prompt exit package, rather than doing what Garman wants for free.
- dartos 2y ago
  I’d be surprised if Amazon still gives an exit package if you failed a PIP. That usually constitutes with cause. I guess it’d depend on the state.
  - bigfatkitten 2y ago
    The exit package offer typically comes when the PIP starts. It gives the company a way of getting rid of you without the hassle. If you go on to fail the PIP, then you get nothing.
    - captainkrtek 2y ago
      This is correct
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      What if you make their life difficult by claiming you have a hostile manager, or that you’ve been mistreated, or that company policies on harassment have been violated, or that you’ve been discriminated against, or that you have health issues that need accommodation? I bet there is a way to force them to pay you to leave. Although I think for me personally it would be a step too far ethically.
      - FireBeyond 2y ago
        Hmmm, like one PIP I got to watch self-destruct up close, where (not at Amazon or a FAANG, but a tier 2 tech company) a manager set a series of actually reasonable deliverables around a new product launch. And then showed up with HR on day 30 and said "after a long review and careful consideration of the deliverables you were asked to produce, we have determined they do not meet our expectations", only to have aggrieved employee pull up the GDocs activity log to show manager and HR that manager had never so much as opened any of the deliverable documents. Manager then retorted "we talked about this on Slack", only to have the same thing, a series of questions, updates, etc., from employee over the PIP period with literally not one reply or reaction from the manager. That's me I'm screenshotting the hell out of those and when you want to try to fight my unemployment claim...
angoragoats 2y ago
Yeesh. Talk about out of touch. I’d really love to see one actual study showing that full RTO has benefits, vs this wishy-washy “I haven’t seen innovation with remote work” garbage.
black_13 2y ago
[dead]
zaptheimpaler 2y ago
>"When we want to really, really innovate on interesting products, I have not seen an ability for us to do that when we're not in-person." ... > One, "disagree and commit" -- which is understood to mean that employees can express grievances but then should dive into a project as outlined by leaders -- is not ideal for remote work, Garman said."I don't know if you guys have tried to disagree via a Chime call," he said, referring to the company's internal messaging and calling function. "It's very hard." This is some of the funniest stuff I've read recently lol. A company with a famously toxic culture that can't seem to disagree over a video call? I wonder why.. do they need a fistfight to really disagree or what?
beanjuiceII 2y ago
time to short aws
Reubend 2y ago
> Garman said under the three-day policy, "we didn't really accomplish anything, like we didn't get to work together and learn from each other." If you can't work effectively and learn from each other without physically sitting together, then it's indicative of poor communication and an unfriendly team. Remote work isn't a root cause of those things. though it might occasionally make them worse. > "I don't know if you guys have tried to disagree via a Chime call," he said, referring to the company's internal messaging and calling function. "It's very hard." Disagreeing isn't any more difficult over a video call. This is just waffling. > "You can't internalize [leadership principles] by reading them on the website, you really have to experience them day-to-day," he said. In my experience, talking about leadership principles (whether in person or remote) doesn't result in new hires learning to follow them. Culture is something you define through action, and your actions demonstrate the priorities and culture of the company implicitly. If your coworkers don't follow the stated principles of the company culture, then it's NOT the company culture. A remote worker should learn the principles of company culture just fine... if they truly represent the culture of the company, rather than just being talking points.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  > > "You can't internalize [leadership principles] by reading them on the website, you really have to experience them day-to-day," he said. > In my experience, talking about leadership principles (whether in person or remote) doesn't result in new hires learning to follow them. Culture is something you define through action, and your actions demonstrate the priorities and culture of the company implicitly. Apropos of anything, Amazon's attitude to leadership principles grinds my gears. How many are there now? Sixteen? Quick, any Amazon employeee, name each of them! And then their "bar-raisers" are often working the Amazon "superiority", "condescension" hard. Some quotes I've heard from them on the leadership principles: > "We don't expect that you use leadership principles at your current job" > at other companies, employees don't "focus on the customer as their customer", instead "their customer is their boss ... and they're focused on doing what they're told". > "I know I’ve certainly referenced a leadership principle or two while talking about parenting techniques." I'm sure that last one really impressed your partner. "You know honey, I know we're struggling with the toddler transition, but one of our SVPs once said ... and I think that's a good leadership principle we could apply at home."
captainkrtek 2y ago
“CEO Matt Garman said nine out of 10 workers he has spoken with support the new policy” Yeah, if the CEO told me to quit if I disagree, and he asked my thoughts on the new policy, I may feel pressured to say it’s great. The classic “Disagree and commute” leadership principle.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  I chuckled. Stealing “Disagree and commute”.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
This is a hilariously misguided form of gaslighting. Amazon employees have told me that they were more productive working remotely. Claiming that people “learn from each other” in person is bizarre when many people go to work only to get on video calls from the office, and even if not that, they mostly have to just focus on their screen and get their own work done. Similarly, if the company cannot make culture work in any way except within the office, that is a problem of a different kind - bad leadership - rather than something due to offices. But this is also such a missed opportunity for the country. It would be so much healthier for people to spread out, live in the places they want to live, be near their families, or choose if they want urban density or rural life, and to share the economy with smaller cities too. I almost feel like we need a new wave of regulations to make this happen - or at least economic incentives so companies that can handle remote work do so.
- christhecaribou 2y ago
  I’m looking at a TC cut to move to Australia or England.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Well, it's not all TC: "- Cost of Living Including Rent in Australia is 5.5% lower than in United States - Rent Prices in Australia are 19.6% lower than in United States - Restaurant Prices in Australia are 7.0% lower than in United States - Groceries Prices in Australia are 1.8% higher than in United States" "- Cost of Living in Melbourne is 29.2% lower than in San Francisco, CA (without rent) - Cost of Living Including Rent in Melbourne is 39.0% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Rent Prices in Melbourne are 53.6% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Restaurant Prices in Melbourne are 32.4% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Groceries Prices in Melbourne are 30.4% lower than in San Francisco, CA" So you may just survive. UK is quite similar: "- Cost of Living in United Kingdom is 6.3% lower than in United States (without rent) - Cost of Living Including Rent in United Kingdom is 12.1% lower than in United States - Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 23.6% lower than in United States - Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 3.7% lower than in United States - Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 20.9% lower than in United States"
mmmBacon 2y ago
Speaking at an all-hands meeting for AWS, unit CEO Matt Garman said nine out of 10 workers he has spoken with support the new policy I work with AWS and a lot of the people I interact with are remote. Some of them moved during the Pandemic. When I’ve come to their site for an in person meeting most of them are on Chime. I wonder how this is going to play out for them. It’s also a bit troubling for me because I’ve been doing business with these folks for years and replacing them would impact not only my business but everyone that does business with them.
red-iron-pine 2y ago
"quit so we don't have to fire you and potentially risk legal issues, unemployment insurance battles, or other stupid BS" just do layoffs man

33 points by belval 2y ago

Head to Microsoft y’all, they have competent management at the helm. https://www.statista.com/chart/18819/worldwide-market-share-of-leading-cloud-infrastructure-service-providers/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18819/worldwide-market-share-... https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft/microsoft-hasnt-chased-amazon-back-to-the-office-its-even-cutting-back-on-office-space/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/microsoft/microsoft-ha...

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
From one evil empire to another?!
- angoragoats 2y ago
  If you’re gonna work for the evil empire (which does have its perks), you might as well work for the one that isn’t run by morons.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I am not sure I agree with the sentiment. Maybe their management is better on this one issue of remote work. But Microsoft’s competency in terms of their financial results is not deserved. They still do all the things they did in the 90s that got them into trouble. Look at the bundling of Teams and Office. Or forced ads in start menus. Or rampant use of dark patterns to get you to use their products. Or the lack of security updates for Windows 10 starting next year, which will force people into Windows 11 and privacy/security violating Recall. A lot of the financial success we’re seeing is Microsoft taking existing enterprise contracts and using them to push new things onto companies repeatedly, as a way to make money. In other words, their existing capital and distribution and captive audience is why they see success, not their “competent management”.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  None of this impacts practitioners receiving generous compensation and flexible working arrangements from Microsoft today, both of which are in short supply at AWS. I leave antitrust to the regulators (who should pursue antitrust behavior), but if you need a place to flee to from the AWS dumpster fire, it exists. Microsoft management is competent because it treats workers like adults and with respect. AWS does not.
shiroiushi 2y ago
Yeah, but then you have to use Windows all day long. It's better to be a janitor cleaning toilets than to suffer this way.
- blinded 2y ago
  Pretty sure you can use a mac.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    That's even worse.
    - mmmBacon 2y ago
      [flagged]

bigfatkitten 2y ago

Or chill out until you get a PIP and prompt exit package, rather than doing what Garman wants for free.

dartos 2y ago
I’d be surprised if Amazon still gives an exit package if you failed a PIP. That usually constitutes with cause. I guess it’d depend on the state.
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  The exit package offer typically comes when the PIP starts. It gives the company a way of getting rid of you without the hassle. If you go on to fail the PIP, then you get nothing.
  - captainkrtek 2y ago
    This is correct
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    What if you make their life difficult by claiming you have a hostile manager, or that you’ve been mistreated, or that company policies on harassment have been violated, or that you’ve been discriminated against, or that you have health issues that need accommodation? I bet there is a way to force them to pay you to leave. Although I think for me personally it would be a step too far ethically.
    - FireBeyond 2y ago
      Hmmm, like one PIP I got to watch self-destruct up close, where (not at Amazon or a FAANG, but a tier 2 tech company) a manager set a series of actually reasonable deliverables around a new product launch. And then showed up with HR on day 30 and said "after a long review and careful consideration of the deliverables you were asked to produce, we have determined they do not meet our expectations", only to have aggrieved employee pull up the GDocs activity log to show manager and HR that manager had never so much as opened any of the deliverable documents. Manager then retorted "we talked about this on Slack", only to have the same thing, a series of questions, updates, etc., from employee over the PIP period with literally not one reply or reaction from the manager. That's me I'm screenshotting the hell out of those and when you want to try to fight my unemployment claim...

angoragoats 2y ago

Yeesh. Talk about out of touch. I’d really love to see one actual study showing that full RTO has benefits, vs this wishy-washy “I haven’t seen innovation with remote work” garbage.

black_13 2y ago

[dead]

zaptheimpaler 2y ago

>"When we want to really, really innovate on interesting products, I have not seen an ability for us to do that when we're not in-person." ... > One, "disagree and commit" -- which is understood to mean that employees can express grievances but then should dive into a project as outlined by leaders -- is not ideal for remote work, Garman said."I don't know if you guys have tried to disagree via a Chime call," he said, referring to the company's internal messaging and calling function. "It's very hard." This is some of the funniest stuff I've read recently lol. A company with a famously toxic culture that can't seem to disagree over a video call? I wonder why.. do they need a fistfight to really disagree or what?

beanjuiceII 2y ago

time to short aws

Reubend 2y ago

> Garman said under the three-day policy, "we didn't really accomplish anything, like we didn't get to work together and learn from each other." If you can't work effectively and learn from each other without physically sitting together, then it's indicative of poor communication and an unfriendly team. Remote work isn't a root cause of those things. though it might occasionally make them worse. > "I don't know if you guys have tried to disagree via a Chime call," he said, referring to the company's internal messaging and calling function. "It's very hard." Disagreeing isn't any more difficult over a video call. This is just waffling. > "You can't internalize [leadership principles] by reading them on the website, you really have to experience them day-to-day," he said. In my experience, talking about leadership principles (whether in person or remote) doesn't result in new hires learning to follow them. Culture is something you define through action, and your actions demonstrate the priorities and culture of the company implicitly. If your coworkers don't follow the stated principles of the company culture, then it's NOT the company culture. A remote worker should learn the principles of company culture just fine... if they truly represent the culture of the company, rather than just being talking points.

FireBeyond 2y ago
> > "You can't internalize [leadership principles] by reading them on the website, you really have to experience them day-to-day," he said. > In my experience, talking about leadership principles (whether in person or remote) doesn't result in new hires learning to follow them. Culture is something you define through action, and your actions demonstrate the priorities and culture of the company implicitly. Apropos of anything, Amazon's attitude to leadership principles grinds my gears. How many are there now? Sixteen? Quick, any Amazon employeee, name each of them! And then their "bar-raisers" are often working the Amazon "superiority", "condescension" hard. Some quotes I've heard from them on the leadership principles: > "We don't expect that you use leadership principles at your current job" > at other companies, employees don't "focus on the customer as their customer", instead "their customer is their boss ... and they're focused on doing what they're told". > "I know I’ve certainly referenced a leadership principle or two while talking about parenting techniques." I'm sure that last one really impressed your partner. "You know honey, I know we're struggling with the toddler transition, but one of our SVPs once said ... and I think that's a good leadership principle we could apply at home."

captainkrtek 2y ago

“CEO Matt Garman said nine out of 10 workers he has spoken with support the new policy” Yeah, if the CEO told me to quit if I disagree, and he asked my thoughts on the new policy, I may feel pressured to say it’s great. The classic “Disagree and commute” leadership principle.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
I chuckled. Stealing “Disagree and commute”.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

This is a hilariously misguided form of gaslighting. Amazon employees have told me that they were more productive working remotely. Claiming that people “learn from each other” in person is bizarre when many people go to work only to get on video calls from the office, and even if not that, they mostly have to just focus on their screen and get their own work done. Similarly, if the company cannot make culture work in any way except within the office, that is a problem of a different kind - bad leadership - rather than something due to offices. But this is also such a missed opportunity for the country. It would be so much healthier for people to spread out, live in the places they want to live, be near their families, or choose if they want urban density or rural life, and to share the economy with smaller cities too. I almost feel like we need a new wave of regulations to make this happen - or at least economic incentives so companies that can handle remote work do so.

christhecaribou 2y ago
I’m looking at a TC cut to move to Australia or England.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Well, it's not all TC: "- Cost of Living Including Rent in Australia is 5.5% lower than in United States - Rent Prices in Australia are 19.6% lower than in United States - Restaurant Prices in Australia are 7.0% lower than in United States - Groceries Prices in Australia are 1.8% higher than in United States" "- Cost of Living in Melbourne is 29.2% lower than in San Francisco, CA (without rent) - Cost of Living Including Rent in Melbourne is 39.0% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Rent Prices in Melbourne are 53.6% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Restaurant Prices in Melbourne are 32.4% lower than in San Francisco, CA - Groceries Prices in Melbourne are 30.4% lower than in San Francisco, CA" So you may just survive. UK is quite similar: "- Cost of Living in United Kingdom is 6.3% lower than in United States (without rent) - Cost of Living Including Rent in United Kingdom is 12.1% lower than in United States - Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 23.6% lower than in United States - Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 3.7% lower than in United States - Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 20.9% lower than in United States"

mmmBacon 2y ago

Speaking at an all-hands meeting for AWS, unit CEO Matt Garman said nine out of 10 workers he has spoken with support the new policy I work with AWS and a lot of the people I interact with are remote. Some of them moved during the Pandemic. When I’ve come to their site for an in person meeting most of them are on Chime. I wonder how this is going to play out for them. It’s also a bit troubling for me because I’ve been doing business with these folks for years and replacing them would impact not only my business but everyone that does business with them.

red-iron-pine 2y ago

"quit so we don't have to fire you and potentially risk legal issues, unemployment insurance battles, or other stupid BS" just do layoffs man