3 ms·

We really have no way to know this. But I would be very surprised if modern chess engines didn't regularly blunder into losing (from the perspective of a hypoth

We really have no way to know this. But I would be very surprised if modern chess engines didn't regularly blunder into losing (from the perspective of a hypothetical 32-piece tablebase) positions, and very very surprised if modern chess engines perfectly converted tablebase-winning positions.

__s 2y ago
not only blunder into losing positions, but also blunder from winning positions into draws even in human chess people sometimes mistaken draw frequency to reflect both sides playing optimally, but there are many games where a winning advantage slips away into a draw
janalsncm 2y ago
The fact that TCEC games aren’t all draws suggests that computers aren’t perfect. Stockfish loses to Leela sometimes for example.
- grumpopotamus 2y ago
  Tcec games are deliberately played from imbalanced opening positions. The draw rate would be much higher for the top participants if this wasn't forced. However, I agree that engines are not perfect. I have heard this claim many times before a new engine came along that showed just how beatable the state of the art engines still were at the time.
- Davidzheng 2y ago
  Most TCEC starting positions are borderline lost
KK7NIL 2y ago
We do know this, there are many positions (primarily sharp middle game one's) where SF/lc0 will significantly change their evaluation as they go deeper. This problem gets better the more time they spend on one position but it's an inevitable consequence of the horizon effect and it's why (except for 8 pieces or less), chess is far from solved.
- Davidzheng 2y ago
  Far from strongly solved but i would wager current SF will not lose half of its white games against any future engine
  - Kstarek 2y ago
    hah, disagree strongly tbh, there may be an adversarial engine that specifically finds positions that stockfish doesn't evaluate well. they did the same to AlphaGo: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/man-beats-machine-at-go-in-human-victory-over-ai/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/man-b...
    - Davidzheng 2y ago
      True that's a reasonable possibility. But in go the top engines are far from perfection but it's not clear in chess
Davidzheng 2y ago
Ofc they do but the more interesting question for weak solved is whether they do in mainline positions (like mainline Berlin, mainline petroff, etc) where you can hold equality in many ways and engines are printing 0.0 everywhere

__s 2y ago

not only blunder into losing positions, but also blunder from winning positions into draws even in human chess people sometimes mistaken draw frequency to reflect both sides playing optimally, but there are many games where a winning advantage slips away into a draw

janalsncm 2y ago

The fact that TCEC games aren’t all draws suggests that computers aren’t perfect. Stockfish loses to Leela sometimes for example.

grumpopotamus 2y ago
Tcec games are deliberately played from imbalanced opening positions. The draw rate would be much higher for the top participants if this wasn't forced. However, I agree that engines are not perfect. I have heard this claim many times before a new engine came along that showed just how beatable the state of the art engines still were at the time.
Davidzheng 2y ago
Most TCEC starting positions are borderline lost

KK7NIL 2y ago

We do know this, there are many positions (primarily sharp middle game one's) where SF/lc0 will significantly change their evaluation as they go deeper. This problem gets better the more time they spend on one position but it's an inevitable consequence of the horizon effect and it's why (except for 8 pieces or less), chess is far from solved.

Davidzheng 2y ago
Far from strongly solved but i would wager current SF will not lose half of its white games against any future engine
- Kstarek 2y ago
  hah, disagree strongly tbh, there may be an adversarial engine that specifically finds positions that stockfish doesn't evaluate well. they did the same to AlphaGo: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/man-beats-machine-at-go-in-human-victory-over-ai/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/02/man-b...
  - Davidzheng 2y ago
    True that's a reasonable possibility. But in go the top engines are far from perfection but it's not clear in chess

Davidzheng 2y ago

Ofc they do but the more interesting question for weak solved is whether they do in mainline positions (like mainline Berlin, mainline petroff, etc) where you can hold equality in many ways and engines are printing 0.0 everywhere