5 ms·

People have no need to write "he/she" when referring to the author when using "he" is correct 90% of the time. If women really want people to be know them as w

by verroq 14y ago

People have no need to write "he/she" when referring to the author when using "he" is correct 90% of the time. If women really want people to be know them as women then they should make it clear that they are. Hell, the suffragettes persevered through much worse than creepy internet comments.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
You should just write in caps "I don't get it". It would more helpful than what you're doing. You don't just seem to think it's okay, but you're actually excusing the fact that our society still defaults to male-first. >Most of the time people use "he" when they don't know the gender of the author. It's not assuming the author is a man. That's exactly what it's assuming. Why else would you "default" to "he" instead of "she"? Because you assume the author to be a man. And what the hell is the suffragettes comment supposed to mean? In one sentence you managed to trivialize the way women are treated often in this industry and basically say the equivalent of "They've had it worse, so who cares".
- verroq 14y ago
  That doesn't sound like anything I wrote. Here's a summary of what I wrote. 1. Sometimes people use "he" to refer to unknown gender. 2. Men outnumber women in tech 3. Men make assumptions because they outnumber women. 4. If women want to make it clear that they are not second-class citizens, they should correct these assumptions. 5. The author of this article feels that if they do (4) they are discriminated against in the form of inappropriate comments etc. 6. I say so what, it's better in the long run.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    1. Sometimes people use "he" to refer to people they assume are male. 2. Men outnumber women in tech, making it all the more important not to further alienate the women left. 3. Men make assumptions and then get super-defensive when it is pointed out that their assumptions are wrong. 4. Women attempting to correct those assumptions are told that men's assumptions aren't men's responsibility and women must take responsibility for what random men happen to think. 4.A. Those same men go on to whine about things that are only true in their assumption-filled heads and have no connection to reality. When called on it, they blame women through convoluted logic of refusing to take responsibility for their own actions. 5. The original author reports that sometimes those defensive reactions include harassment, which makes it even less fair to put the entire onus on women who not only are being asked to put in extra effort, but they are also subject to punishment for having done so. 6. Apparently verroq somehow thinks this double standard is fair and "better in the long run", probably because what he means it "it's better for me as a dude, since I don't have to do any work and can keep irrationally blaming women for my failings."
    - verroq 14y ago
      See I was agreeing with your post up to here, but I can't help but view the cynicism and angst as reflection on your character. >6. Apparently verroq somehow thinks this double standard is fair and "better in the long run", probably because what he means it "it's better for me as a dude, since I don't have to do any work and can keep irrationally blaming women for my failings." I said women should speak out against this double standard, even if they get hit with some personal attacks. I like the way you twisted my words to suit your self-righteous indignation.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        He has every right to be annoyed that you turn this into the female's problem by saying they should just speak up for themselves. You're either incredibly naive or incredibly in denial.
        verroq 14y ago
        So you are saying that females are incapable of speaking up for themselves? Perhaps a legion of White Knights should lead the way? Least the feminist movement be lead by a man, if females don't have the resolve to help themselves, then I'd say they can't be helped. Sure, you may call me naive to suggest the obvious solution, but do you have any evidence that it won't work?
        drivebyacct2 14y ago
        I'm sorry that the absurdity of your implications are not more obvious. I don't have the patience to spell it out for you, maybe someone else does. You're in denial about the reality of the social forces that have created the gender inequality in the tech industry. It's a result of the actions of males, and it makes a lot of intuitive sense to address the problem there. Do you understand how absurd the position that you've backed yourself into sounds? The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? Women should speak up for themselves? Oh really, you mean like the article we're discussing. Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out?
- greyfade 14y ago
  > Why else would you "default" to "he" instead of "she"? Because you assume the author to be a man. I can say both from experience and personal perspective that, especially in America, it is a cultural norm to use "he" as a gender-neutral, non-normative pronoun. "They" sounds both awkward and invalid since it is taught as a plural pronoun. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and this is the way I and everyone around me spoke. We never used "he" exclusively as a male pronoun, especially when gender was indeterminate. Some people would correct themselves by saying, "He ... or she..." I myself have spent years training myself to use "they" instead of "he," and I still catch myself using "he" when I clearly mean to use a gender-neutral pronoun. Please do not put words in people's mouths and assume that when we use "he" it means we think it's a man. Our subculture is different from your own. Our upbringing is different from yours. It is a fallacy to assume otherwise. Not everyone is a backward sexist.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    I never intended to imply that this was a conscious assumption, but I do believe the assumption is there. Language matters and shapes our thinking, and there is no reason to think that "everyone does it" doesn't mean it's sexist. Even where is a cultural norm, it sets male up as default and women up as weird variations from that norm. It has been shown in German and Russian that the gender of inanimate nouns changes how people respond to them. Why do you think that wouldn't be true of referring to everyone as male?
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    You're missing the point too. Language is an important part of human perception, conscious and unconscious. The words you use shape reality, and using a pronoun that is specifically not gender neutral in a context has an effect, subtle or not. I'm not sure how else to convey this thought except to ask you to do some research into how language affects perception, particularly when it comes to social inequality. It's a well studied and well documented arena of sociology

by verroq 14y ago

drivebyacct2 14y ago

You should just write in caps "I don't get it". It would more helpful than what you're doing. You don't just seem to think it's okay, but you're actually excusing the fact that our society still defaults to male-first. >Most of the time people use "he" when they don't know the gender of the author. It's not assuming the author is a man. That's exactly what it's assuming. Why else would you "default" to "he" instead of "she"? Because you assume the author to be a man. And what the hell is the suffragettes comment supposed to mean? In one sentence you managed to trivialize the way women are treated often in this industry and basically say the equivalent of "They've had it worse, so who cares".

verroq 14y ago
That doesn't sound like anything I wrote. Here's a summary of what I wrote. 1. Sometimes people use "he" to refer to unknown gender. 2. Men outnumber women in tech 3. Men make assumptions because they outnumber women. 4. If women want to make it clear that they are not second-class citizens, they should correct these assumptions. 5. The author of this article feels that if they do (4) they are discriminated against in the form of inappropriate comments etc. 6. I say so what, it's better in the long run.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  1. Sometimes people use "he" to refer to people they assume are male. 2. Men outnumber women in tech, making it all the more important not to further alienate the women left. 3. Men make assumptions and then get super-defensive when it is pointed out that their assumptions are wrong. 4. Women attempting to correct those assumptions are told that men's assumptions aren't men's responsibility and women must take responsibility for what random men happen to think. 4.A. Those same men go on to whine about things that are only true in their assumption-filled heads and have no connection to reality. When called on it, they blame women through convoluted logic of refusing to take responsibility for their own actions. 5. The original author reports that sometimes those defensive reactions include harassment, which makes it even less fair to put the entire onus on women who not only are being asked to put in extra effort, but they are also subject to punishment for having done so. 6. Apparently verroq somehow thinks this double standard is fair and "better in the long run", probably because what he means it "it's better for me as a dude, since I don't have to do any work and can keep irrationally blaming women for my failings."
  - verroq 14y ago
    See I was agreeing with your post up to here, but I can't help but view the cynicism and angst as reflection on your character. >6. Apparently verroq somehow thinks this double standard is fair and "better in the long run", probably because what he means it "it's better for me as a dude, since I don't have to do any work and can keep irrationally blaming women for my failings." I said women should speak out against this double standard, even if they get hit with some personal attacks. I like the way you twisted my words to suit your self-righteous indignation.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      He has every right to be annoyed that you turn this into the female's problem by saying they should just speak up for themselves. You're either incredibly naive or incredibly in denial.
      - verroq 14y ago
        So you are saying that females are incapable of speaking up for themselves? Perhaps a legion of White Knights should lead the way? Least the feminist movement be lead by a man, if females don't have the resolve to help themselves, then I'd say they can't be helped. Sure, you may call me naive to suggest the obvious solution, but do you have any evidence that it won't work?
        drivebyacct2 14y ago
        I'm sorry that the absurdity of your implications are not more obvious. I don't have the patience to spell it out for you, maybe someone else does. You're in denial about the reality of the social forces that have created the gender inequality in the tech industry. It's a result of the actions of males, and it makes a lot of intuitive sense to address the problem there. Do you understand how absurd the position that you've backed yourself into sounds? The people perpetuating the problem shouldn't be part of the solution or discussion? Women should speak up for themselves? Oh really, you mean like the article we're discussing. Maybe if slaves had just fought harder, right, then we wouldn't have had to help them out?
greyfade 14y ago
> Why else would you "default" to "he" instead of "she"? Because you assume the author to be a man. I can say both from experience and personal perspective that, especially in America, it is a cultural norm to use "he" as a gender-neutral, non-normative pronoun. "They" sounds both awkward and invalid since it is taught as a plural pronoun. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and this is the way I and everyone around me spoke. We never used "he" exclusively as a male pronoun, especially when gender was indeterminate. Some people would correct themselves by saying, "He ... or she..." I myself have spent years training myself to use "they" instead of "he," and I still catch myself using "he" when I clearly mean to use a gender-neutral pronoun. Please do not put words in people's mouths and assume that when we use "he" it means we think it's a man. Our subculture is different from your own. Our upbringing is different from yours. It is a fallacy to assume otherwise. Not everyone is a backward sexist.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  I never intended to imply that this was a conscious assumption, but I do believe the assumption is there. Language matters and shapes our thinking, and there is no reason to think that "everyone does it" doesn't mean it's sexist. Even where is a cultural norm, it sets male up as default and women up as weird variations from that norm. It has been shown in German and Russian that the gender of inanimate nouns changes how people respond to them. Why do you think that wouldn't be true of referring to everyone as male?
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  You're missing the point too. Language is an important part of human perception, conscious and unconscious. The words you use shape reality, and using a pronoun that is specifically not gender neutral in a context has an effect, subtle or not. I'm not sure how else to convey this thought except to ask you to do some research into how language affects perception, particularly when it comes to social inequality. It's a well studied and well documented arena of sociology