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I just don't see how the value - from a benefit to the U.S. economy perspective - is tied to salary so that doesn't make sense to me as a line to draw. If the

I just don't see how the value - from a benefit to the U.S. economy perspective - is tied to salary so that doesn't make sense to me as a line to draw. If the H-1B program were to be limited in any way (which is not something I necessarily agree with), one option is to list occupations that are in short supply each year and to prioritize those. Many countries do this.

jefftk 2y ago
> one option is to list occupations that are in short supply each year and to prioritize those That's a lot of what prioritizing slots by pay does: pay is higher for jobs with low supply relative to demand.
- gangstead 2y ago
  I suspect that the real problem with prioritizing by pay is that it shows that a lot of employers are using H1-B workers to put downward pressure on wages. Also there are a lot of parties involved in gaming the complex system whose services wouldn't be needed if the solution was that simple. I think Upton Sinclair's quote applies here. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-ge...
- bubblethink 2y ago
  Not necessarily. You need farmers and scientists. Can't do a descending sort by salary.
  - Detrytus 2y ago
    Wasn't Trump's proposal few years ago "95th percentile salary for their profession"? So you still have room for farmers and scientists provided that they are exceptional (or at least exceptionally well paid) farmers and scientists.
    - bubblethink 2y ago
      The executive can't do anything. It has to be passed by Congress. Congress hasn't passed anything in 30+ years.
    - d1sxeyes 2y ago
      Who defines “profession” though? Is “farmer” all encompassing, or is “chicken farmer” different from “cattle farmer”? Is “battery chicken farmer” different to “free range chicken farmer”? Do I need to be top 5% US-wide or just the city/state I would be hired in?
      - yyhhsj0521 2y ago
        I don't disagree there's a lot of complications in the actual implementation, but this approach is a better-than-status-quo way to achieve some fairness IMO. Currently the US Dept of Labor has a system of determining the fair wage that should be paid to a certain job description at a certain geographic location. In the green card process this is called "prevailing wage determination". Why not use it for H1b too?
        Detrytus 2y ago
        “Prevailing wage determination” is already a part of h1b process, but it is easily gamed.
- hocuspocus 2y ago
  This is not ideal, because within the same occupation, not every industry can afford paying the same salaries. Such policy would disproportionally favor high margin companies: adtech, tobacco, oil, finance, ... Arguably not the ones you should help get access to top engineering talent. If Indian IT consultancies abuse the system, maybe the US should try to understand why there's such amount of unmet demand for cheap IT labor that cannot be offshored.
gangstead 2y ago
Doesn't salary at least set a floor on what a company thinks that employee is going to add in value? They wouldn't spend dollars on salary to get dimes of extra revenue. I would also argue that prioritizing the highest paid jobs makes displacement of US workers less likely. It would raise the bar for everyone.
casenmgreen 2y ago
I had two H1-Bs. The process is completely divorced from reality. The questions and requirements are meaningless. To my eye, there is zero rationality in the process. As far as I can see, the and the only effect of the visa programme is that there is a limited number of visas, and so this acts to prevent businesses from hiring the people they want to hire, and that's not freedom; and in the process of doing so, causing untold disruption to lives and businesses and direct and indirect costs to businesses, individuals and economy as a whole.
- dcreater 2y ago
  Perfectly said. It's so insane that most people don't understand how poorly designed the system is and how much unintended negative consequences it engenders. But ironically it's also the only thing that prevents the number of international students from truly exploding. It's already a travesty that many big name public universities have more people from Shanghai or Mumbai than the next town over. Universities are behaving like corporations in trying to maximize revenue
  - trogdor 2y ago
    > It's already a travesty that many big name public universities have more people from Shanghai or Mumbai than the next town over. Why is that a travesty?
    - tjs8rj 2y ago
      Because universities have a duty first and foremost to their community. That is the citizens of their country and increasing duty to those local to them in their country. The United States is not an economic zone that belongs to the world in short.

jefftk 2y ago

> one option is to list occupations that are in short supply each year and to prioritize those That's a lot of what prioritizing slots by pay does: pay is higher for jobs with low supply relative to demand.

gangstead 2y ago
I suspect that the real problem with prioritizing by pay is that it shows that a lot of employers are using H1-B workers to put downward pressure on wages. Also there are a lot of parties involved in gaming the complex system whose services wouldn't be needed if the solution was that simple. I think Upton Sinclair's quote applies here. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-get-a-man-to-understand-something https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/21810-it-is-difficult-to-ge...
bubblethink 2y ago
Not necessarily. You need farmers and scientists. Can't do a descending sort by salary.
- Detrytus 2y ago
  Wasn't Trump's proposal few years ago "95th percentile salary for their profession"? So you still have room for farmers and scientists provided that they are exceptional (or at least exceptionally well paid) farmers and scientists.
  - bubblethink 2y ago
    The executive can't do anything. It has to be passed by Congress. Congress hasn't passed anything in 30+ years.
  - d1sxeyes 2y ago
    Who defines “profession” though? Is “farmer” all encompassing, or is “chicken farmer” different from “cattle farmer”? Is “battery chicken farmer” different to “free range chicken farmer”? Do I need to be top 5% US-wide or just the city/state I would be hired in?
    - yyhhsj0521 2y ago
      I don't disagree there's a lot of complications in the actual implementation, but this approach is a better-than-status-quo way to achieve some fairness IMO. Currently the US Dept of Labor has a system of determining the fair wage that should be paid to a certain job description at a certain geographic location. In the green card process this is called "prevailing wage determination". Why not use it for H1b too?
      - Detrytus 2y ago
        “Prevailing wage determination” is already a part of h1b process, but it is easily gamed.
hocuspocus 2y ago
This is not ideal, because within the same occupation, not every industry can afford paying the same salaries. Such policy would disproportionally favor high margin companies: adtech, tobacco, oil, finance, ... Arguably not the ones you should help get access to top engineering talent. If Indian IT consultancies abuse the system, maybe the US should try to understand why there's such amount of unmet demand for cheap IT labor that cannot be offshored.

gangstead 2y ago

Doesn't salary at least set a floor on what a company thinks that employee is going to add in value? They wouldn't spend dollars on salary to get dimes of extra revenue. I would also argue that prioritizing the highest paid jobs makes displacement of US workers less likely. It would raise the bar for everyone.

casenmgreen 2y ago

I had two H1-Bs. The process is completely divorced from reality. The questions and requirements are meaningless. To my eye, there is zero rationality in the process. As far as I can see, the and the only effect of the visa programme is that there is a limited number of visas, and so this acts to prevent businesses from hiring the people they want to hire, and that's not freedom; and in the process of doing so, causing untold disruption to lives and businesses and direct and indirect costs to businesses, individuals and economy as a whole.

dcreater 2y ago
Perfectly said. It's so insane that most people don't understand how poorly designed the system is and how much unintended negative consequences it engenders. But ironically it's also the only thing that prevents the number of international students from truly exploding. It's already a travesty that many big name public universities have more people from Shanghai or Mumbai than the next town over. Universities are behaving like corporations in trying to maximize revenue
- trogdor 2y ago
  > It's already a travesty that many big name public universities have more people from Shanghai or Mumbai than the next town over. Why is that a travesty?
  - tjs8rj 2y ago
    Because universities have a duty first and foremost to their community. That is the citizens of their country and increasing duty to those local to them in their country. The United States is not an economic zone that belongs to the world in short.