4 ms·

"Men are not raised to share feelings" Male Patients' Discourses on Group CBT

14 points by tokai 2y ago

sandspar 2y ago
I went to one of these male group therapy things before and it was icky and weird. The facilitator was a gay guy wearing earrings and lipstick. One of the other guys there was a plumber or something like that. He was trying to talk about his wife when another guy cut in and started telling some sob story about his feelings. The whole thing felt passive aggressive and like a fight was about to break out. There's two kinds of intimate guy spaces: "brotherhood" oriented ones, where you NEVER cry; and "therapy" ones, where you're expected to cry. The "therapy" people keep trying to sell these group therapy sessions as "brotherhood" sessions and when the poor brotherhood schmucks show up they get grossed out and ganged up on by the sobbers.
- phil-martin 2y ago
  That would have been a tough environment to walk into, having your instincts shout at you there was a fight about break out. I think there are a lot more than just two types of intimate spaces for men. The best part is people have the ability to create new spaces, then keep iterating and trying new ideas. And even more excitingly they aren’t static, they can change and adapt to what the people in the group need. To use a part of your anecdote, that therapy group you went to sounded like not what you wanted or needed at the time. But one could imagine another guy walking in and see the facilitator with earrings and lipstick and say to themselves “oh this is amazing, I feel safe here knowing I can wear makeup and won’t be ridiculed” It’s different for everyone. Each individual has a responsibility to create and shape the world to be better, depending on their capacity, sphere of influence and ability to do so. Right now my capacity is very low, so I’m depending on others for support. But in the future I very much hope to set up groups or ways for guys to connect in a way that fits what I wish I had access to. One specific example of when I’ve these this implemented exceptionally well is a wood working group I saw. The premise is you come and do carpentry, but what really happens is trust is built up over time. At some point an thereshold is reached where newer people feel safe enough to share, and then were able to talk about things going on in their life and get some practical support and advice. It’s so rare so see such an effective blend of what you described as the extremes of brotherhood or therapy sessions.
  - sandspar 2y ago
    You're right, in a way. This kind of speaking style you use is very welcome in the "therapy" areas but would be considered passive aggressive or creepy in the "brotherhood" ones. Using "therapy speak" on people who have said they dislike it (like you're using with me) is generally considered an insult, since it implies that I'm not your equal. You're basically talking down to me in a circuitous way which makes it difficult for me to address it directly. Right now, to a naive outsider, you are being the polite one and I'm being the impolite one, when in truth it's the opposite.
- mock-possum 2y ago
  Curious, what does the facilitator’s sexuality and fashion choice have to do with anything? Why would you bring it up and describe it specifically, after using the words “icky and weird?”
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sandspar 2y ago
    Another good example of the "pretending to be polite but secretly aggressive" behavior that's so prevalent in group therapy. Thank you for demonstrating it.
    - mock-possum 2y ago
      It’s an attempt to get you to clarify whether you’re being openly homophobic, or if you just come off that way unintentionally. What does it matter whether he was gay and dressing a bit fem?
swagasaurus-rex 2y ago
I’ve found most men are actually very open to sharing their feelings if you ask them about it. They’re often relieved to have somebody who actually cares to listen. These studies place the blame on men for not “opening up” or “sharing their feelings”. I think that attitude is hurtful. The blame lies with those who are unwilling to listen, which is honestly most people.
- johnny22 2y ago
  > I think that attitude is hurtful. The blame lies with those who are unwilling to listen, which is honestly most people. This is my experience. All my guy friends growing up were totally willing to both open up on a personal level when it was just me and them. However, too many of them were willing to make too many jokes at my expense when in a group of multiple guys. So they weren't super helpful in keeping me as that person. I'm sure i was a bit more "thin skinned" or whatever than I should be been, but I expected more from them, since they were willing to be so sincere when it's just me and them. The tonal whiplash was too hard to take. Hopefully we've all grown a bit since then.
  - justonenote 2y ago
    Some of the worst advice I've gotten in my life was to 'just ignore' verbal bullying/jokes in group settings. I mean in a way it worked no-one bothered me much because I would just dead-face stare so it was boring to engage with me, and to be clear it was never very severe, but I think the more correct response is to realize that it's just a game of social competition and you should learn to participate in some way or another. You absolutely see this more in males who are very happy and actually want to compete in public group settings, whether verbal, physical, or something mental like chess or programming, depending on your disposition. There is a reason for this which is pretty obvious, but the other side of that is, privately, out of the public eye, before or after, grudges won't be held and things can be shared.
justonenote 2y ago
Authored by 5 women and 1 man, and the transcripts and initial research/sessions were run by only women therapists (which is noted at the start of the paper as something to be aware of) Not surprisingly then, the whole piece is framed as things like, > cultural beliefs about masculinity > hegemonic masculine practices in western societies > traditional masculinity beliefs. > discourses surrounding traditional masculinity and how these are unhelpful in allowing men to express emotions and participate and/or seek out therapy. At no point as far as I can tell do the authors consider the possibility that men being more drawn to be self-reliant, action orientated and problem solvers rather than emotionally expressive are not just beliefs but everyday reality. Of course men have emotions, but lambasting them from that they should ignore "socially constructed western beliefs about gender roles" to instead focus on their emotions so they can avail of therapy doesn't seem so productive. There is some interesting tidbits in the piece though, bearing in mind the subjects were a mix of men and women who sought out therapy. > When we conducted analysis on the full sample, we noticed that the men’ all brought up the role of gender in their interviews, whilst the women in the sample generally did not. I wonder what social influences could explain why in a group split between men and women that sought out therapy the men were the ones much more cognizant of gender. To be charitable the authors do seem to be open to the idea, and indeed the whole point of the paper is, that different approaches to therapy might work better for men, but at the same time the whole thing is very much based on the blank slate/gender is socially constructed idea. > The binary categories of gender are generally changing and in the future many patients will probably be more gender fluid. This presents a new, important research avenue. What about addressing the binary categories of biological sex? Which are unlikely to change anytime soon no matter how much funding for research is obtained.

14 points by tokai 2y ago

I went to one of these male group therapy things before and it was icky and weird. The facilitator was a gay guy wearing earrings and lipstick. One of the other guys there was a plumber or something like that. He was trying to talk about his wife when another guy cut in and started telling some sob story about his feelings. The whole thing felt passive aggressive and like a fight was about to break out. There's two kinds of intimate guy spaces: "brotherhood" oriented ones, where you NEVER cry; and "therapy" ones, where you're expected to cry. The "therapy" people keep trying to sell these group therapy sessions as "brotherhood" sessions and when the poor brotherhood schmucks show up they get grossed out and ganged up on by the sobbers.

phil-martin 2y ago
That would have been a tough environment to walk into, having your instincts shout at you there was a fight about break out. I think there are a lot more than just two types of intimate spaces for men. The best part is people have the ability to create new spaces, then keep iterating and trying new ideas. And even more excitingly they aren’t static, they can change and adapt to what the people in the group need. To use a part of your anecdote, that therapy group you went to sounded like not what you wanted or needed at the time. But one could imagine another guy walking in and see the facilitator with earrings and lipstick and say to themselves “oh this is amazing, I feel safe here knowing I can wear makeup and won’t be ridiculed” It’s different for everyone. Each individual has a responsibility to create and shape the world to be better, depending on their capacity, sphere of influence and ability to do so. Right now my capacity is very low, so I’m depending on others for support. But in the future I very much hope to set up groups or ways for guys to connect in a way that fits what I wish I had access to. One specific example of when I’ve these this implemented exceptionally well is a wood working group I saw. The premise is you come and do carpentry, but what really happens is trust is built up over time. At some point an thereshold is reached where newer people feel safe enough to share, and then were able to talk about things going on in their life and get some practical support and advice. It’s so rare so see such an effective blend of what you described as the extremes of brotherhood or therapy sessions.
- sandspar 2y ago
  You're right, in a way. This kind of speaking style you use is very welcome in the "therapy" areas but would be considered passive aggressive or creepy in the "brotherhood" ones. Using "therapy speak" on people who have said they dislike it (like you're using with me) is generally considered an insult, since it implies that I'm not your equal. You're basically talking down to me in a circuitous way which makes it difficult for me to address it directly. Right now, to a naive outsider, you are being the polite one and I'm being the impolite one, when in truth it's the opposite.
mock-possum 2y ago
Curious, what does the facilitator’s sexuality and fashion choice have to do with anything? Why would you bring it up and describe it specifically, after using the words “icky and weird?”
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sandspar 2y ago
  Another good example of the "pretending to be polite but secretly aggressive" behavior that's so prevalent in group therapy. Thank you for demonstrating it.
  - mock-possum 2y ago
    It’s an attempt to get you to clarify whether you’re being openly homophobic, or if you just come off that way unintentionally. What does it matter whether he was gay and dressing a bit fem?

swagasaurus-rex 2y ago

I’ve found most men are actually very open to sharing their feelings if you ask them about it. They’re often relieved to have somebody who actually cares to listen. These studies place the blame on men for not “opening up” or “sharing their feelings”. I think that attitude is hurtful. The blame lies with those who are unwilling to listen, which is honestly most people.

johnny22 2y ago
> I think that attitude is hurtful. The blame lies with those who are unwilling to listen, which is honestly most people. This is my experience. All my guy friends growing up were totally willing to both open up on a personal level when it was just me and them. However, too many of them were willing to make too many jokes at my expense when in a group of multiple guys. So they weren't super helpful in keeping me as that person. I'm sure i was a bit more "thin skinned" or whatever than I should be been, but I expected more from them, since they were willing to be so sincere when it's just me and them. The tonal whiplash was too hard to take. Hopefully we've all grown a bit since then.
- justonenote 2y ago
  Some of the worst advice I've gotten in my life was to 'just ignore' verbal bullying/jokes in group settings. I mean in a way it worked no-one bothered me much because I would just dead-face stare so it was boring to engage with me, and to be clear it was never very severe, but I think the more correct response is to realize that it's just a game of social competition and you should learn to participate in some way or another. You absolutely see this more in males who are very happy and actually want to compete in public group settings, whether verbal, physical, or something mental like chess or programming, depending on your disposition. There is a reason for this which is pretty obvious, but the other side of that is, privately, out of the public eye, before or after, grudges won't be held and things can be shared.

justonenote 2y ago

Authored by 5 women and 1 man, and the transcripts and initial research/sessions were run by only women therapists (which is noted at the start of the paper as something to be aware of) Not surprisingly then, the whole piece is framed as things like, > cultural beliefs about masculinity > hegemonic masculine practices in western societies > traditional masculinity beliefs. > discourses surrounding traditional masculinity and how these are unhelpful in allowing men to express emotions and participate and/or seek out therapy. At no point as far as I can tell do the authors consider the possibility that men being more drawn to be self-reliant, action orientated and problem solvers rather than emotionally expressive are not just beliefs but everyday reality. Of course men have emotions, but lambasting them from that they should ignore "socially constructed western beliefs about gender roles" to instead focus on their emotions so they can avail of therapy doesn't seem so productive. There is some interesting tidbits in the piece though, bearing in mind the subjects were a mix of men and women who sought out therapy. > When we conducted analysis on the full sample, we noticed that the men’ all brought up the role of gender in their interviews, whilst the women in the sample generally did not. I wonder what social influences could explain why in a group split between men and women that sought out therapy the men were the ones much more cognizant of gender. To be charitable the authors do seem to be open to the idea, and indeed the whole point of the paper is, that different approaches to therapy might work better for men, but at the same time the whole thing is very much based on the blank slate/gender is socially constructed idea. > The binary categories of gender are generally changing and in the future many patients will probably be more gender fluid. This presents a new, important research avenue. What about addressing the binary categories of biological sex? Which are unlikely to change anytime soon no matter how much funding for research is obtained.