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The question remains whether this price drop - if it actually is going to occur at all - will be forwarded to the end-customer. Right now, the high prices of EV

by kleiba 2y ago

The question remains whether this price drop - if it actually is going to occur at all - will be forwarded to the end-customer. Right now, the high prices of EV compared to ICE is one of the main roadblocks for broader adoption of electric cars.

stavros 2y ago
Why wouldn't it? Capitalism ensures that price drops reach the customer (unless there are cartels, of course, which are game-theoretically hard).
- defrost 2y ago
  Right now the entities in the EV battery game want to build out, it's unlikely therefore they'd constrict and choke an ever increasing demand. That said, there absolutely is the potential for large key players to aquire more control and|or to maximise their profits rather than minimise and end price. Today’s battery and minerals supply chains revolve around China China produces three-quarters of all lithium-ion batteries and is home to 70% of production capacity for cathodes and 85% for anodes (both are key components of batteries). Over half of lithium, cobalt and graphite processing and refining capacity is located in China. Europe is responsible for over one-quarter of global EV assembly, but it is home to very little of the supply chain apart from cobalt processing at 20%. The United States has an even smaller role in the global EV battery supply chain, with only 10% of EV production and 7% of battery production capacity. Korea and Japan have considerable shares of the supply chain downstream of raw material processing, particularly in the highly technical production of cathode and anode material. Korea is responsible for 15% of global cathode material production capacity, while Japan accounts for 14% of cathode and 11% of anode material production. Korean and Japanese companies are also involved in the production of other battery components such as separators. Most key minerals are mined in resource-rich countries such as Australia, Chile and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and handled by a few major companies. https://www.iea.org/reports/global-supply-chains-of-ev-batteries https://www.iea.org/reports/global-supply-chains-of-ev-batte...
- tdb7893 2y ago
  I would say competitive markets more than capitalism are responsible for that and we've seen many many cartels and monopolies (even with legislation against them) so it's weird to imply that they aren't fairly very common. It also doesn't need to be a full cartel, there is a lot of tacit collusion between companies or other mechanisms where they don't really compete.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  Continuous inflation without raised salaries means exactly the opposite of this. I ran a python script the other day using the French state data on pricing. Minimal wage was about 1000 euros after tax in 2003, and is 1300 in 2023. But 1000 in 2003 is about 2300 euros in 2023 according to the same official data. I don't know a single vital thing in my life that is not more expensive now than when I was a kid: food, water, energy, shelter, clothes, health... They are all more expensive. Now sure, internet access is less expensive and better, but you can't eat wifi.
  - stuaxo 2y ago
    Unchecked capitalism trys hard to turn into feudalism.
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      France, a state with famously unchecked capitalism bordering on libertarian anarcho-capitalism.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Why would one expect those things to not be more expensive? Governments explicitly and intentionally manipulate currency so that prices (overall) are on an upward march. Also, comparing changes in income deciles over time would be more useful than minimum wage changes, as legislatures are not necessarily reacting in real time. > food, water, energy, shelter, clothes, health Many of these are things where technological advances resulting in greater and greater economies of scale plateaued, or where technological advances mean that your expectation of the quality of goods or service greatly increased. The former would be water/energy/shelter/food/clothes. The world has a lot more people competing for these resources, but there was no commensurate increase in supply. The latter would be health, where the healthcare from your childhood is a greatly different product (at the advanced levels, not necessarily the routine checkup or flu visit).
    - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
      Given that prices for health in the US are exorbitant because they are based on the free market and the prices in France much cheaper (even when you pay 100% of of pocket) because the market is state controled, I have a hard time to take your comment seriously. But I'm sure you will find a reason while health is an exception.
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  > Why wouldn't [the price drop]? For the same reason that Americans can't buy a BYD Seagull.
HDThoreaun 2y ago
The car market is incredibly competitive, especially in the budget range. There are too many automakers competing for any to just decide not to pass savings without having an uncompetitive product.

by kleiba 2y ago

stavros 2y ago

Why wouldn't it? Capitalism ensures that price drops reach the customer (unless there are cartels, of course, which are game-theoretically hard).

defrost 2y ago
Right now the entities in the EV battery game want to build out, it's unlikely therefore they'd constrict and choke an ever increasing demand. That said, there absolutely is the potential for large key players to aquire more control and|or to maximise their profits rather than minimise and end price. Today’s battery and minerals supply chains revolve around China China produces three-quarters of all lithium-ion batteries and is home to 70% of production capacity for cathodes and 85% for anodes (both are key components of batteries). Over half of lithium, cobalt and graphite processing and refining capacity is located in China. Europe is responsible for over one-quarter of global EV assembly, but it is home to very little of the supply chain apart from cobalt processing at 20%. The United States has an even smaller role in the global EV battery supply chain, with only 10% of EV production and 7% of battery production capacity. Korea and Japan have considerable shares of the supply chain downstream of raw material processing, particularly in the highly technical production of cathode and anode material. Korea is responsible for 15% of global cathode material production capacity, while Japan accounts for 14% of cathode and 11% of anode material production. Korean and Japanese companies are also involved in the production of other battery components such as separators. Most key minerals are mined in resource-rich countries such as Australia, Chile and the Democratic Republic of Congo, and handled by a few major companies. https://www.iea.org/reports/global-supply-chains-of-ev-batteries https://www.iea.org/reports/global-supply-chains-of-ev-batte...
tdb7893 2y ago
I would say competitive markets more than capitalism are responsible for that and we've seen many many cartels and monopolies (even with legislation against them) so it's weird to imply that they aren't fairly very common. It also doesn't need to be a full cartel, there is a lot of tacit collusion between companies or other mechanisms where they don't really compete.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
Continuous inflation without raised salaries means exactly the opposite of this. I ran a python script the other day using the French state data on pricing. Minimal wage was about 1000 euros after tax in 2003, and is 1300 in 2023. But 1000 in 2003 is about 2300 euros in 2023 according to the same official data. I don't know a single vital thing in my life that is not more expensive now than when I was a kid: food, water, energy, shelter, clothes, health... They are all more expensive. Now sure, internet access is less expensive and better, but you can't eat wifi.
- stuaxo 2y ago
  Unchecked capitalism trys hard to turn into feudalism.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    France, a state with famously unchecked capitalism bordering on libertarian anarcho-capitalism.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Why would one expect those things to not be more expensive? Governments explicitly and intentionally manipulate currency so that prices (overall) are on an upward march. Also, comparing changes in income deciles over time would be more useful than minimum wage changes, as legislatures are not necessarily reacting in real time. > food, water, energy, shelter, clothes, health Many of these are things where technological advances resulting in greater and greater economies of scale plateaued, or where technological advances mean that your expectation of the quality of goods or service greatly increased. The former would be water/energy/shelter/food/clothes. The world has a lot more people competing for these resources, but there was no commensurate increase in supply. The latter would be health, where the healthcare from your childhood is a greatly different product (at the advanced levels, not necessarily the routine checkup or flu visit).
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    Given that prices for health in the US are exorbitant because they are based on the free market and the prices in France much cheaper (even when you pay 100% of of pocket) because the market is state controled, I have a hard time to take your comment seriously. But I'm sure you will find a reason while health is an exception.
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
> Why wouldn't [the price drop]? For the same reason that Americans can't buy a BYD Seagull.

HDThoreaun 2y ago

The car market is incredibly competitive, especially in the budget range. There are too many automakers competing for any to just decide not to pass savings without having an uncompetitive product.