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A lot of people here seem to ramble about this, apparently without ever having actually used Passkeys themselves: They are nothing like SSNs, driver licenses or

by 9dev 2y ago

A lot of people here seem to ramble about this, apparently without ever having actually used Passkeys themselves: They are nothing like SSNs, driver licenses or other static IDs. A Passkey is generated per device/site combination, where the client holds the private key, the site receives the public key, and the user can optionally share their private key among user devices depending on their client software. That's all it is. How are you "screwed", and what does it even mean "they don't work perfectly" for you? What's more, passwords work well for a much smaller percentage that has learned to use password managers. Everyone else is subject to regular breaches, and suffering. This is a problem Passkeys get rid of entirely. There is no good argument against using Passkeys over passwords. Not one.

lxgr 2y ago
I know how they technically work. I was referring to how 99% of people have (or can easily get) an SSN, license etc., but for 1% it’s absolutely impossible for various reasons, so any flow requiring one for non social security or tax declaration purposes is an unnecessary obstruction to them when other alternatives exist. Don’t ever believe that passkeys will always stay strictly optional. As soon as something works for 99% of potential customers, the 1% can be deprecated for efficiency/security/… purposes. And I’m even not anti-passkey or anything, I personally like them and will take them over SMS OTPs any day. But they’re just not done yet, and I really hope they get done in a way that works for everyone before they start becoming mandatory in some places.
- 9dev 2y ago
  I dunno. Should we then proceed to keep up the awful situation we currently have for the 99%, just to avoid any inconvenience to the 1%? That's not how democratic societies usually work. What reasons are there for not using Passkeys? So far, the only things in the threads here were vague fears of vendor lock-in by people who apparently overlooked the fact that Passkeys are supported by a lot of password managers other than just iCloud Keychain and Google, including open source software. What is this 1% that we should sacrifice a clear solution to password breaches for?
  - lxgr 2y ago
    As I said: Most likely the ideal solution really is passkeys, just not in their current form. I just wish their governance was a bit more aligned with users rather than just big tech. This would be something where Mozilla could really shine, for example, but I haven’t really seen them in the relevant forums, and they were quite late on WebAuthN as a whole. Some focus on avoiding lock-in and (somewhat orthogonal to that) enabling non-cloud credential duplication would be great, to name a few remaining issues.
izacus 2y ago
Yeah, they're more like SSH id_rsa/id_rsa.pub keys you've probably been using for decades.
- lxgr 2y ago
  That’s exactly the concern many people here have with passkeys in a nutshell: SSH keys started out as standardized, interoperable plaintext files (with an option to use GPG smartcards or other hardware credentials or custom SSH agents if you need them). Passkeys are the opposite. And defaults matter.

by 9dev 2y ago

lxgr 2y ago

I know how they technically work. I was referring to how 99% of people have (or can easily get) an SSN, license etc., but for 1% it’s absolutely impossible for various reasons, so any flow requiring one for non social security or tax declaration purposes is an unnecessary obstruction to them when other alternatives exist. Don’t ever believe that passkeys will always stay strictly optional. As soon as something works for 99% of potential customers, the 1% can be deprecated for efficiency/security/… purposes. And I’m even not anti-passkey or anything, I personally like them and will take them over SMS OTPs any day. But they’re just not done yet, and I really hope they get done in a way that works for everyone before they start becoming mandatory in some places.

9dev 2y ago
I dunno. Should we then proceed to keep up the awful situation we currently have for the 99%, just to avoid any inconvenience to the 1%? That's not how democratic societies usually work. What reasons are there for not using Passkeys? So far, the only things in the threads here were vague fears of vendor lock-in by people who apparently overlooked the fact that Passkeys are supported by a lot of password managers other than just iCloud Keychain and Google, including open source software. What is this 1% that we should sacrifice a clear solution to password breaches for?
- lxgr 2y ago
  As I said: Most likely the ideal solution really is passkeys, just not in their current form. I just wish their governance was a bit more aligned with users rather than just big tech. This would be something where Mozilla could really shine, for example, but I haven’t really seen them in the relevant forums, and they were quite late on WebAuthN as a whole. Some focus on avoiding lock-in and (somewhat orthogonal to that) enabling non-cloud credential duplication would be great, to name a few remaining issues.

izacus 2y ago

Yeah, they're more like SSH id_rsa/id_rsa.pub keys you've probably been using for decades.

lxgr 2y ago
That’s exactly the concern many people here have with passkeys in a nutshell: SSH keys started out as standardized, interoperable plaintext files (with an option to use GPG smartcards or other hardware credentials or custom SSH agents if you need them). Passkeys are the opposite. And defaults matter.