38 ms·

Remember when Israel shot at that car with a family in it? Hind Rajab. Or when they sniped that journalist and attacked her funeral, Shireen Abu Aqleh? Or wh

by hmcq6 2y ago

Remember when Israel shot at that car with a family in it? Hind Rajab. Or when they sniped that journalist and attacked her funeral, Shireen Abu Aqleh? Or when they bombed the AP building in 2021 with no evidence. Or when the IOF threw a baby in an oven in front of the father during the Deir Yassin massacre? Hussein al-Shareef and Abdul Rauf Or when they bombed refugee camps? Or when they told people to evacuate south and then bombed the Rafah border crossing so they couldn't escape? Or the Goldstone Report where the UN found that the IOF was forcing Palestinians at gun point to enter buildings first to make sure they're clear? https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g09/158/66/pdf/g0915866.pdf https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g09/158/66/pdf/g09158... Page 22 Very demure, very mindful

edanm 2y ago
Yes, you can make a list of terrible acts committed by almost any military, especially if you go back 76 years to before it was a state. It is very clear that some soldiers in the IDF, like in any army, have committed war crimes.
- hmcq6 2y ago
  It's not "some soldiers", Netanyahu and others at the top have signified their intent to commit genocide with their repeated dehumanization of Palestinians as "Amalek". The Israeli Minister of National Security was a member of a recognized terrorist group. It's not some bad apples, the leadership in Israel is rotten to the core. But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an oven in front of the father is some next level nazi shit. If you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything
  - edanm 2y ago
    > But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an oven in front of the father is some next level nazi shit. If you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything. I didn't excuse it. I said it was a terrible act. It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded. Quite literally 3 years after millions of Jews were systematically burned in Nazi-Germany's ovens. Do you think Germany's actions in WW2 are relevant if discussing Germany today? > It's not "some soldiers", Netanyahu and others at the top have signified their intent to commit genocide with their repeated dehumanization of Palestinians as "Amalek". Those were statements made the week after the horrible October 7th massacre. They were propaganda statements that should never have been made, but you call it repeated. And it isn't. What has been repeated is the thousands of times that Netanyahu and others have said that Israel is only going after Hamas, not Gazan civilians. > The Israeli Minister of National Security was a member of a recognized terrorist group. Well that I can't argue with. That minister is a disgusting human being who is completely destroying Israel from within, even apart from the vile things he is doing against Palestinians. Luckily his impact on the war isn't huge, but he definitely has some impact, including scuttling ceasefire deals and pressuring for the war to continue. He is vile and Israel should be ashamed he has any influence on Israel at all, let alone being in charge of the police. (Most Israelis agree about this, unfortunately the totally corrupt Netanyahu needs him for his own political ambitions, because all normal Israelis politicians refuse to work with him!)
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded. > Those were statements made the week after the horrible October 7th massacre. They were propaganda statements that should never have been made, but you call it repeated. And it isn't. Hmm... I smell a double standard. Cite Israeli aggression too recently and it's justified sensationalism - cite it from the 50s and you're passing an invisible statute of limitations. Most people on this site are American, they're not going to lambaste you for supporting a political nuthouse lest they scorn themselves. But they will (and rightfully so) contest anyone that tries laundering history to create a halo-effect for their favorite nation. Zionism deserves it's due shake no matter what the conditions were at the time, especially considering how interests in the region predated WWII with the Balfour declaration. The problem isn't people, but politics. Israel (as does America with their Abrahamic militants) has an extremism problem that has been given undue control over government and military proceedings. Their actions (as you've admit with the propaganda concession) has justified insane actions and statements that cannot be rationally supported. The events of October 7th were gruesome indeed, but most people will admit that Israel's reactions were too incensed to take seriously. The world's apprehension would be proven correct as Israel made hot-headed mistakes like bombing aid workers and approving poorly-targeted operations as bloody restitution. Two wrongs don't make a right. The US depends on Israel to not just enforce peace in the Levant, but to export the Western esprit de corps across the world. If Israel continues to allow it's politics to be dictated entirely by identity and emotion, then logic will be rhetorically unnecessary to justify any military action.
      - edanm 2y ago
        > Hmm... I smell a double standard. Cite Israeli aggression too recently and it's justified sensationalism - cite it from the 50s and you're passing an invisible statute of limitations. My problem with citing one statement out of a thousand is that it gives the wrong impression, especially if that is made in the heat of war rhetoric. And I don't think there's any double standard with saying that we should consider war crimes committed 80 years ago as less relevant. That's how everyone thinks of things all the time in other contexts. Egypt was one of the countries that fought wars with Israel multiple times - now Egypt and Israel have peace. Moving on from past violence is pretty much how every conflict eventually ends. > The events of October 7th were gruesome indeed, but most people will admit that Israel's reactions were too incensed to take seriously. Most people think so. And they might be right. I certainly have a lot of questions and doubts about the way Israel has carried out the war. But it's worth noting that many/most of the most vocal critics of Israel were incredibly critical before Israel had done almost anything. Israel was accused of genocide almost days after October 7th. And indeed, all over the world, people were protesting Israel while Hamas militants were still inside Israel slaughtering families, before Israel had done any response. So I take criticism of Israel from some people seriously, but with a huge grain of salt.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The vast majority (5/6) of the instances refer to were much more recent than 76 years ago, of course -- and fully 2/3 were from just the past 2-3 years. The Deir Yassin reference was just icing on the cake.† So perhaps you'd like to address those most recent instances instead? With particular emphasis on "purposefully targeting civilians", which you seemed to suggest was no longer an IDF thing, or part of the brand the the State of Israel has gone out of its way to create for itself in the world today. † Though there are some in the IDF who would strongly disagree, and maintain that Deir Yassin is very much relevant to the current moment -- https://imgur.com/a/UE5q2Fm https://imgur.com/a/UE5q2Fm
  - edanm 2y ago
    > So perhaps you'd like to address those most recent instances instead. I'm not sure what more you think I can say beyond what I've already said - "It is very clear that some soldiers in the IDF, like in any army, have committed war crimes." Some of the cases in that list are fairly clear war crimes, others are more complicated (and I don't know enough about them). Let me make my position as clear as I can: - I'm 100% sure that in this war, plenty of war crimes have occurred. - I'm personally extremely angry with the lax professional standards of the IDF in many cases, and of the relatively lax threshold for choosing which targest to bomb. - I would've been happy with a ceasefire a long time ago, mostly to start allowing Gazans to go back to normal life. That all said, I think Israel's desire to remove Hamas is totally valid, and would probably be better for Israelis and Gazans themselves. Hamas is absolutely acting in many ways in order to maximize civilian deaths, which makes it really hard to take them out without killing civilians, and for the most part, the IDF is doing its best not to kill civilians. I think if you compare the numbers of combatant vs civilian deaths coming out of Gaza, and look at expert military opinion on the IDF, they're pretty clear that the IDF is doing relatively similarly to how other armies faced with similar situations have done (e.g. the US in Mosul). And I think war is horrible. You can sit down and list thousands of tragedies, and sometimes war crimes, in every single conflict. That's just not unique to this situation, and listing individual tragedies or crimes is just not by itself evidence of much except that war is terrible. > With particular emphasis on "purposefully targeting civilians", which you seemed to suggest was no longer an IDF thing So this conclusion, that the IDF targets civilians on purpose, as a policy, is just wrong. The IDF could kill as many civilians as it wanted with no IDF soldiers dying, pretty much at any time. It has never done so and never will do so, because it doesn't target civilians. Have individual actions been wrong, or do individual soldiers sometimes commit war crimes? Absolutely. But as a policy the IDF does not target civilians.

by hmcq6 2y ago

edanm 2y ago

Yes, you can make a list of terrible acts committed by almost any military, especially if you go back 76 years to before it was a state. It is very clear that some soldiers in the IDF, like in any army, have committed war crimes.

hmcq6 2y ago
It's not "some soldiers", Netanyahu and others at the top have signified their intent to commit genocide with their repeated dehumanization of Palestinians as "Amalek". The Israeli Minister of National Security was a member of a recognized terrorist group. It's not some bad apples, the leadership in Israel is rotten to the core. But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an oven in front of the father is some next level nazi shit. If you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything
- edanm 2y ago
  > But it's clear that no matter what I say you're gonna excuse it. Throwing a baby into an oven in front of the father is some next level nazi shit. If you'll excuse that you'll excuse anything. I didn't excuse it. I said it was a terrible act. It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded. Quite literally 3 years after millions of Jews were systematically burned in Nazi-Germany's ovens. Do you think Germany's actions in WW2 are relevant if discussing Germany today? > It's not "some soldiers", Netanyahu and others at the top have signified their intent to commit genocide with their repeated dehumanization of Palestinians as "Amalek". Those were statements made the week after the horrible October 7th massacre. They were propaganda statements that should never have been made, but you call it repeated. And it isn't. What has been repeated is the thousands of times that Netanyahu and others have said that Israel is only going after Hamas, not Gazan civilians. > The Israeli Minister of National Security was a member of a recognized terrorist group. Well that I can't argue with. That minister is a disgusting human being who is completely destroying Israel from within, even apart from the vile things he is doing against Palestinians. Luckily his impact on the war isn't huge, but he definitely has some impact, including scuttling ceasefire deals and pressuring for the war to continue. He is vile and Israel should be ashamed he has any influence on Israel at all, let alone being in charge of the police. (Most Israelis agree about this, unfortunately the totally corrupt Netanyahu needs him for his own political ambitions, because all normal Israelis politicians refuse to work with him!)
  - talldayo 2y ago
    > It was also committed more than 70 years ago, technically before Israel was even founded. > Those were statements made the week after the horrible October 7th massacre. They were propaganda statements that should never have been made, but you call it repeated. And it isn't. Hmm... I smell a double standard. Cite Israeli aggression too recently and it's justified sensationalism - cite it from the 50s and you're passing an invisible statute of limitations. Most people on this site are American, they're not going to lambaste you for supporting a political nuthouse lest they scorn themselves. But they will (and rightfully so) contest anyone that tries laundering history to create a halo-effect for their favorite nation. Zionism deserves it's due shake no matter what the conditions were at the time, especially considering how interests in the region predated WWII with the Balfour declaration. The problem isn't people, but politics. Israel (as does America with their Abrahamic militants) has an extremism problem that has been given undue control over government and military proceedings. Their actions (as you've admit with the propaganda concession) has justified insane actions and statements that cannot be rationally supported. The events of October 7th were gruesome indeed, but most people will admit that Israel's reactions were too incensed to take seriously. The world's apprehension would be proven correct as Israel made hot-headed mistakes like bombing aid workers and approving poorly-targeted operations as bloody restitution. Two wrongs don't make a right. The US depends on Israel to not just enforce peace in the Levant, but to export the Western esprit de corps across the world. If Israel continues to allow it's politics to be dictated entirely by identity and emotion, then logic will be rhetorically unnecessary to justify any military action.
    - edanm 2y ago
      > Hmm... I smell a double standard. Cite Israeli aggression too recently and it's justified sensationalism - cite it from the 50s and you're passing an invisible statute of limitations. My problem with citing one statement out of a thousand is that it gives the wrong impression, especially if that is made in the heat of war rhetoric. And I don't think there's any double standard with saying that we should consider war crimes committed 80 years ago as less relevant. That's how everyone thinks of things all the time in other contexts. Egypt was one of the countries that fought wars with Israel multiple times - now Egypt and Israel have peace. Moving on from past violence is pretty much how every conflict eventually ends. > The events of October 7th were gruesome indeed, but most people will admit that Israel's reactions were too incensed to take seriously. Most people think so. And they might be right. I certainly have a lot of questions and doubts about the way Israel has carried out the war. But it's worth noting that many/most of the most vocal critics of Israel were incredibly critical before Israel had done almost anything. Israel was accused of genocide almost days after October 7th. And indeed, all over the world, people were protesting Israel while Hamas militants were still inside Israel slaughtering families, before Israel had done any response. So I take criticism of Israel from some people seriously, but with a huge grain of salt.
aguaviva 2y ago
The vast majority (5/6) of the instances refer to were much more recent than 76 years ago, of course -- and fully 2/3 were from just the past 2-3 years. The Deir Yassin reference was just icing on the cake.† So perhaps you'd like to address those most recent instances instead? With particular emphasis on "purposefully targeting civilians", which you seemed to suggest was no longer an IDF thing, or part of the brand the the State of Israel has gone out of its way to create for itself in the world today. † Though there are some in the IDF who would strongly disagree, and maintain that Deir Yassin is very much relevant to the current moment -- https://imgur.com/a/UE5q2Fm https://imgur.com/a/UE5q2Fm
- edanm 2y ago
  > So perhaps you'd like to address those most recent instances instead. I'm not sure what more you think I can say beyond what I've already said - "It is very clear that some soldiers in the IDF, like in any army, have committed war crimes." Some of the cases in that list are fairly clear war crimes, others are more complicated (and I don't know enough about them). Let me make my position as clear as I can: - I'm 100% sure that in this war, plenty of war crimes have occurred. - I'm personally extremely angry with the lax professional standards of the IDF in many cases, and of the relatively lax threshold for choosing which targest to bomb. - I would've been happy with a ceasefire a long time ago, mostly to start allowing Gazans to go back to normal life. That all said, I think Israel's desire to remove Hamas is totally valid, and would probably be better for Israelis and Gazans themselves. Hamas is absolutely acting in many ways in order to maximize civilian deaths, which makes it really hard to take them out without killing civilians, and for the most part, the IDF is doing its best not to kill civilians. I think if you compare the numbers of combatant vs civilian deaths coming out of Gaza, and look at expert military opinion on the IDF, they're pretty clear that the IDF is doing relatively similarly to how other armies faced with similar situations have done (e.g. the US in Mosul). And I think war is horrible. You can sit down and list thousands of tragedies, and sometimes war crimes, in every single conflict. That's just not unique to this situation, and listing individual tragedies or crimes is just not by itself evidence of much except that war is terrible. > With particular emphasis on "purposefully targeting civilians", which you seemed to suggest was no longer an IDF thing So this conclusion, that the IDF targets civilians on purpose, as a policy, is just wrong. The IDF could kill as many civilians as it wanted with no IDF soldiers dying, pretty much at any time. It has never done so and never will do so, because it doesn't target civilians. Have individual actions been wrong, or do individual soldiers sometimes commit war crimes? Absolutely. But as a policy the IDF does not target civilians.