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I'm fine with the mockery, I genuinely hadn't realized that "wanting to pay for what one needs" was such a hot and controversial take.

by ezst 2y ago

ginko 2y ago
The extra cost of the area spent on npu cores is pretty hard to quantify. I guess removing it would allow for higher yields and number of chips per wafer but then you’d need to set up tooling for two separate runs (one with npu and one without) Add to that that most of the cost is actually the design of the chip and it’s clear why manufacturers just always add the extra features. Maybe they could sell a chip with the NPU permanently disabled but I guess that wouldn’t be what you want either? Fwiw there should be no power downside to having an unused unit. It’ll just not be powered.
- ezst 2y ago
  The argument boils down to "since it's there, better to keep it because making a version without it would defeat economies of scale and not save much, if at all", and that's a sensible take… under the assumption that there's a general demand for NPUs, which I contest. In practice, everyone is paying a premium for NPUs that only a minority desires, and only a fraction of that minority essentially does "something" with it. This thread really helps to show that the use-cases are few, non-essential, and that the general application landscape hasn't adopted NPUs and has very little incentive to do so (because of the alien programming model, because of hardware compat across vendors, because of the ecosystem being a moving target with little stability in sight, and because of the high-effort/low-reward in general). I do want to be wrong, of course. Tech generally is exciting because it offers new tools to crack old problems, opening new venues and opportunities in the process. Here it looks like we have a solution in search for a problem that was set by marketing departments.
  - Miraste 2y ago
    Modern SoCs already have all kinds of features with use-cases that are few and non-essential. Granted they don't take as much space as NPUS, but manufacturers are betting that if NPUs are available, software will evolve to use them regularly. If it doesn't, they'll probably go away in a few generations. But at a minimum, Microsoft and Apple seem highly committed to using them.

I'm fine with the mockery, I genuinely hadn't realized that "wanting to pay for what one needs" was such a hot and controversial take.

by ezst 2y ago

I'm fine with the mockery, I genuinely hadn't realized that "wanting to pay for what one needs" was such a hot and controversial take.

ginko 2y ago

The extra cost of the area spent on npu cores is pretty hard to quantify. I guess removing it would allow for higher yields and number of chips per wafer but then you’d need to set up tooling for two separate runs (one with npu and one without) Add to that that most of the cost is actually the design of the chip and it’s clear why manufacturers just always add the extra features. Maybe they could sell a chip with the NPU permanently disabled but I guess that wouldn’t be what you want either? Fwiw there should be no power downside to having an unused unit. It’ll just not be powered.

ezst 2y ago
The argument boils down to "since it's there, better to keep it because making a version without it would defeat economies of scale and not save much, if at all", and that's a sensible take… under the assumption that there's a general demand for NPUs, which I contest. In practice, everyone is paying a premium for NPUs that only a minority desires, and only a fraction of that minority essentially does "something" with it. This thread really helps to show that the use-cases are few, non-essential, and that the general application landscape hasn't adopted NPUs and has very little incentive to do so (because of the alien programming model, because of hardware compat across vendors, because of the ecosystem being a moving target with little stability in sight, and because of the high-effort/low-reward in general). I do want to be wrong, of course. Tech generally is exciting because it offers new tools to crack old problems, opening new venues and opportunities in the process. Here it looks like we have a solution in search for a problem that was set by marketing departments.
- Miraste 2y ago
  Modern SoCs already have all kinds of features with use-cases that are few and non-essential. Granted they don't take as much space as NPUS, but manufacturers are betting that if NPUs are available, software will evolve to use them regularly. If it doesn't, they'll probably go away in a few generations. But at a minimum, Microsoft and Apple seem highly committed to using them.