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Just based on your comment, I can promise you I have payed attention to the conflict less than you and have less of a 'dog in the fight' in terms of supporting

by kuhewa 2y ago

Just based on your comment, I can promise you I have payed attention to the conflict less than you and have less of a 'dog in the fight' in terms of supporting a side. I just noticed your comment begging the question regarding mortalities that reflect makeup of a civilian population being the null case in urban warfare that needs no explanation. It's a positive claim that requires empirical support, which you aren't providing. A quick squiz would suggest this women+children death toll is the greatest in some time by some margin, despite some quite bloody and urbanised conflicts in recent years [1]. Perhaps you have justified knowledge that this case is different than any other or just better-documented, and the deaths are unavoidable insofar as urban warfare is to be conducted. But even if it is the case that urban warfare should be expected to be conducted quite inefficiently (to the point that combatants are successfully targeted at a rate barely greater than random members of the population), you are also taking it as a given that conducting it at all is justified and shouldn't be alarming. That doesn't appear to be a given by military standards of developed countries: > Destroying an urban area to save it is not an option for commanders. The density of civilian populations in urban areas and the multidimensional nature of the environment make it more likely that even accurate attacks with precision weapons will injure noncombatants.…If collateral damage is likely to be of sufficient magnitude, it may justify avoiding urban operations, which though tactically successful, would run counter to national and strategic objectives. United States Army and Marine Corps 2017 Manual on Urban Operations, quoted in [2] [1] https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-child... [2] https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2021/04/27/urban-warfare/ https://blogs.icrc.org/law-and-policy/2021/04/27/urban-warfa...

jiggawatts 2y ago
Please re-read my statements, I’m choosing my words carefully. Urban conflict in general produces civilian casualties with women, men, and children dying in proportions matching the demographics. In the Russia-vs-Ukraine war there are relatively few dead children because the demographics of both counties skews towards adults — not because of the military doctrine of either side. Children make up less than 20% of the population and hence less than 20% of the civilian deaths. Gaza has ridiculously skewed demographics with fully half of the population below the age of 18. (Don’t take my word for it, just Google it.) Hence the civilian deaths in Gaza reflect this skewed demographics. Fifty percent of civilian deaths are children not because Israel is targeting children (as if they were cartoon villains!) but because fifty percent of the civilians are children! I don’t disagree with the facts. It’s just that facts are being presented without the background detail to make Israel look insanely evil. Which they are not… they just a normal amount of evil.
- kuhewa 2y ago
  > Urban conflict in general produces civilian casualties with women, men, and children dying in proportions matching the demographics. You are begging the question still. Citation needed. > In the Russia-vs-Ukraine war there are relatively few dead children because the demographics of both counties skews towards adults — not because of the military doctrine of either side. Children make up less than 20% of the population and hence less than 20% of the civilian deaths. That dog won't hunt. ~58k Ukranian soldiers killed + 12k civilians = 70k total [1]. 633 Ukrainian children killed [2]. 20% of the population is children but they make up < 1% or those directly killed in the conflict. You will probably take issue with the degree of urbanisation etc., but it was your example. > Fifty percent of civilian deaths are children not because Israel is targeting children (as if they were cartoon villains!) I suggest you are strawmanning the argument here — I don't think Israel is actively targeting children is an accurate representation of the concerned 'side' overall (I'm sure you can find a tweet making it). But it is plain their actions are pretty indiscriminate wrt the combatant:civilian kill ratio. > they just a normal amount of evil. You haven't supported this claim, and its a considerable leap from 'Gaza has a pyramid-shaped age structure'. Yet, there is data available on recent urbanised conflicts and what the 'normal amount' is. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain... [2] https://www.savethechildren.org.au/media/media-releases/child-casualties-see-alarming-spike https://www.savethechildren.org.au/media/media-releases/chil...
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    Let me simplify this for you: Do you believe that 50kg shells or 500kg bombs dropped on apartment blocks selectively kill women and children, or that they kill the people in the apartment block indiscriminately? Because the arguments being made here are the former: that somehow the Israeli military is going out of its way to target not just civilians, but specifically an excess of women and children... or something to that effect. Certainly, the bare statement that 65% of the victims of the war are women and children is intended to make people think that.
    - 2y ago

by kuhewa 2y ago

jiggawatts 2y ago

Please re-read my statements, I’m choosing my words carefully. Urban conflict in general produces civilian casualties with women, men, and children dying in proportions matching the demographics. In the Russia-vs-Ukraine war there are relatively few dead children because the demographics of both counties skews towards adults — not because of the military doctrine of either side. Children make up less than 20% of the population and hence less than 20% of the civilian deaths. Gaza has ridiculously skewed demographics with fully half of the population below the age of 18. (Don’t take my word for it, just Google it.) Hence the civilian deaths in Gaza reflect this skewed demographics. Fifty percent of civilian deaths are children not because Israel is targeting children (as if they were cartoon villains!) but because fifty percent of the civilians are children! I don’t disagree with the facts. It’s just that facts are being presented without the background detail to make Israel look insanely evil. Which they are not… they just a normal amount of evil.

kuhewa 2y ago
> Urban conflict in general produces civilian casualties with women, men, and children dying in proportions matching the demographics. You are begging the question still. Citation needed. > In the Russia-vs-Ukraine war there are relatively few dead children because the demographics of both counties skews towards adults — not because of the military doctrine of either side. Children make up less than 20% of the population and hence less than 20% of the civilian deaths. That dog won't hunt. ~58k Ukranian soldiers killed + 12k civilians = 70k total [1]. 633 Ukrainian children killed [2]. 20% of the population is children but they make up < 1% or those directly killed in the conflict. You will probably take issue with the degree of urbanisation etc., but it was your example. > Fifty percent of civilian deaths are children not because Israel is targeting children (as if they were cartoon villains!) I suggest you are strawmanning the argument here — I don't think Israel is actively targeting children is an accurate representation of the concerned 'side' overall (I'm sure you can find a tweet making it). But it is plain their actions are pretty indiscriminate wrt the combatant:civilian kill ratio. > they just a normal amount of evil. You haven't supported this claim, and its a considerable leap from 'Gaza has a pyramid-shaped age structure'. Yet, there is data available on recent urbanised conflicts and what the 'normal amount' is. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain... [2] https://www.savethechildren.org.au/media/media-releases/child-casualties-see-alarming-spike https://www.savethechildren.org.au/media/media-releases/chil...
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  Let me simplify this for you: Do you believe that 50kg shells or 500kg bombs dropped on apartment blocks selectively kill women and children, or that they kill the people in the apartment block indiscriminately? Because the arguments being made here are the former: that somehow the Israeli military is going out of its way to target not just civilians, but specifically an excess of women and children... or something to that effect. Certainly, the bare statement that 65% of the victims of the war are women and children is intended to make people think that.
  - 2y ago