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It's interesting to watch these "talking points" bouncing around when there's a politically charged topic like the war in Gaza. (For reference: I have no skin i

It's interesting to watch these "talking points" bouncing around when there's a politically charged topic like the war in Gaza. (For reference: I have no skin in the game and support neither side.) Having said that: 65% killed being women and children is because of the demographics of Gaza, not because of any specific behaviour by Israel other than just "being at war" with their neighbours. It's a talking point used by a people supporting one of the two sides, blithely ignoring the realities of a complex situation. The reality is that 50% of Gaza's adult population if female, and nearly 50% of their population is below the age of 18! In other words, their population is 75% "women and children". In any other war, that 65% statistic would be a sign of deliberate and malicious targetting of innocent non-combatants. In the Gaza war it is the sad but usual level of collateral damage that one might expect in urban fighting. Not to mention that this number would be even lower, but is as high as it is because of human-shield tactics used by HAMAS. The people that use this 65% statistic often do so with the knowledge that people listening to it don't know the demographics of Gaza or the vile actions of HAMAS. They're trying to convince those listening through deception. Their cause may be just in their eyes, but does that justify this kind of false debate? It's in the same category as claiming 500 people died when "Isreal bombed a hospital" mere minutes after the incident, which turned out to be a failed HAMAS rocket that landed in the parking lot and killed maybe half a dozen people. Yes, what Isreal is doing is bad, but not "murdering women and babies on purpose" bad!

kuhewa 2y ago
You appear to be making the case that the 65% statistic of Gazans killed by Israel shouldn't be alarming since it merely is converging on the demographic makeup of the population. I'd argue that it is very alarming when military casualties converge on the general populations demographics and not the demographics of actual combatants.
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  All I'm saying is that if any other country attacked Gaza using any normal means of war, they'd end up with the same statistic. Israel is not doing anything out of the ordinary for war. The statistics you quoted is a side-effect of Gaza's demographics. Note that I don't condone Israel's actions in Gaza. I'm just saying that those actions are no worse than one would expect, but this statistic is purposefully deceptive and is being trumpeted across the Internet specifically to make Israel look worse than they are actually acting. You support one of the two sides above the other. That's your right. But please don't support them through chosen talking points intended to deceive the audience. PS: One of the two sides in this war targeted civilians on purpose and failed at doing so. The other site targeted combatants and failed at doing so. Which would you say is the more superior position?
  - amrocha 2y ago
    There’s no deception done imo. Your argument is that it’s ok that Israel has killed this many women and kids because they’re over represented in the population. Most people’s perspective is that you shouldn’t kill kids and women and target civilians, regardless of anything else. And you’re ignoring the mountain of evidence of israel deliberately targeting civilians. Just the other day the times published a thorough report on israeli snipers deliberately targeting toddlers. That truth does not square with your “it’s just collateral damage” argument.
    - jiggawatts 2y ago
      > report on israeli snipers deliberately targeting toddlers. Link please.
      - funcrush 2y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-doctor-interviews.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-... https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/ https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on...
        jiggawatts 2y ago
        For reference, I'm willing to accept every factual statement of the article: the doctor worked in Gaza, he saw many children with bullet wounds to the head or chest, many were single shots, etc... A relative of mine is a nurse working in a hospital. I noticed a long time ago that her perspective on the statistics of illnesses is very skewed. She sees only very sick patients because -- duh -- she works in a hospital. Hence, she thinks every sniffle of her nephew is an emergency -- because she sees only emergency cases! There are ~40K dead, ~100K wounded in Gaza by the war, of which half are children: about 70K child casualties of which 50K didn't die. Parents and hospitals will prioritise children over adults. A child with multiple gunshot wounds will more than likely die on the spot and not be taken to hospital. A child with a single gunshot wound is more likely to cling to life long enough to make it into a hospital. In absolute terms, the few dozens cases mentioned in the article are just the inevitable statistics. I would be very surprised if doctors in Gaza had not treated many more such cases! I would expect a couple of hundred per hospital (there are only 32) at least. To reiterate: None of this is in any way good, none of the children deserved any of this, and in no way is Israel innocent in the matter. It's just that it is the natural consequence of warfare in a high-density urban setting with that demo.
arczyx 2y ago
> Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities. https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 > Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities, https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commissio...
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  I can’t speak knowledgeably about the first point (I doubt many people can, fog of war and all that) but it is well known that Hamas set up command centres in or under hospitals to use them as human shields. Are you telling me that Hamas deserves none of the blame?
  - arczyx 2y ago
    > it is well known that Hamas set up command centres in or under hospitals This is patently false. Israel single-handedly claimed this without any evidence other than CGI render. Think about it, ALL hospitals in Gaza has been bombed by this point, but have you ever see the actual footage of Hamas command centres? Also pretty sure there was no Hamas involved in the case below: > In one of the most egregious cases, the Commission investigated the killing of five-year-old Hind Rajab, along with her extended family, and the shelling of a Palestinian Red Crescent Society ambulance and killing of two paramedics sent to rescue her. The Commission determined on reasonable grounds that the Israeli Army’s 162nd Division operated in the area and is responsible for killing the family of seven, shelling the ambulance and killing the two paramedics inside. This constitutes the war crimes of wilful killing and an attack against civilian objects. Also for the first point, you can read more about it in NYT (if you have the subscription) here: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/opinion/gaza-children-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/opinion/gaza-children-dea... Some people accused it as fake, but NYT themselves had rigorously verified the evidences and found it to be true: https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/ https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on...
kombine 2y ago
> Yes, what Isreal is doing is bad, but not "murdering women and babies on purpose" bad! They are murdering children on purpose. Check the recent NY Times article by American doctors who worked in Gaza. Nearly all of them dealt with children shot in the head or in the chest on almost a daily basis. It is impossible to deny at this point that Israel is carrying out an extermination campaign there if not outright genocide.
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  Please see my other comments in my comment history. During times of war, doctors in trauma centres see a filtered (biased) sampling of injuries because of triage, prioritisation of kids over adults, etc...
no_exit 2y ago
> Yes, what Isreal is doing is bad, but not "murdering women and babies on purpose" bad! https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-kil... > Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in cross-hairs and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war. 2009 btw
rudnevr 2y ago
[flagged]
- jiggawatts 2y ago
  I’m just trying to stay as close to the facts as possible… which is that yeah, about 50 kids died daily on average during this war. Even the low estimates divided by the number of days since the start result in about 50 daily deaths. I would expect that number to vary a lot day to day, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least a few days near the beginning where over 100 kids died in a 24 hour period.

kuhewa 2y ago

You appear to be making the case that the 65% statistic of Gazans killed by Israel shouldn't be alarming since it merely is converging on the demographic makeup of the population. I'd argue that it is very alarming when military casualties converge on the general populations demographics and not the demographics of actual combatants.

jiggawatts 2y ago
All I'm saying is that if any other country attacked Gaza using any normal means of war, they'd end up with the same statistic. Israel is not doing anything out of the ordinary for war. The statistics you quoted is a side-effect of Gaza's demographics. Note that I don't condone Israel's actions in Gaza. I'm just saying that those actions are no worse than one would expect, but this statistic is purposefully deceptive and is being trumpeted across the Internet specifically to make Israel look worse than they are actually acting. You support one of the two sides above the other. That's your right. But please don't support them through chosen talking points intended to deceive the audience. PS: One of the two sides in this war targeted civilians on purpose and failed at doing so. The other site targeted combatants and failed at doing so. Which would you say is the more superior position?
- amrocha 2y ago
  There’s no deception done imo. Your argument is that it’s ok that Israel has killed this many women and kids because they’re over represented in the population. Most people’s perspective is that you shouldn’t kill kids and women and target civilians, regardless of anything else. And you’re ignoring the mountain of evidence of israel deliberately targeting civilians. Just the other day the times published a thorough report on israeli snipers deliberately targeting toddlers. That truth does not square with your “it’s just collateral damage” argument.
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    > report on israeli snipers deliberately targeting toddlers. Link please.
    - funcrush 2y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-doctor-interviews.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/09/opinion/gaza-... https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/ https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on...
      - jiggawatts 2y ago
        For reference, I'm willing to accept every factual statement of the article: the doctor worked in Gaza, he saw many children with bullet wounds to the head or chest, many were single shots, etc... A relative of mine is a nurse working in a hospital. I noticed a long time ago that her perspective on the statistics of illnesses is very skewed. She sees only very sick patients because -- duh -- she works in a hospital. Hence, she thinks every sniffle of her nephew is an emergency -- because she sees only emergency cases! There are ~40K dead, ~100K wounded in Gaza by the war, of which half are children: about 70K child casualties of which 50K didn't die. Parents and hospitals will prioritise children over adults. A child with multiple gunshot wounds will more than likely die on the spot and not be taken to hospital. A child with a single gunshot wound is more likely to cling to life long enough to make it into a hospital. In absolute terms, the few dozens cases mentioned in the article are just the inevitable statistics. I would be very surprised if doctors in Gaza had not treated many more such cases! I would expect a couple of hundred per hospital (there are only 32) at least. To reiterate: None of this is in any way good, none of the children deserved any of this, and in no way is Israel innocent in the matter. It's just that it is the natural consequence of warfare in a high-density urban setting with that demo.

arczyx 2y ago

> Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities. https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 > Israel has perpetrated a concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities, https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commission-finds-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity-israeli-attacks https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/10/un-commissio...

jiggawatts 2y ago
I can’t speak knowledgeably about the first point (I doubt many people can, fog of war and all that) but it is well known that Hamas set up command centres in or under hospitals to use them as human shields. Are you telling me that Hamas deserves none of the blame?
- arczyx 2y ago
  > it is well known that Hamas set up command centres in or under hospitals This is patently false. Israel single-handedly claimed this without any evidence other than CGI render. Think about it, ALL hospitals in Gaza has been bombed by this point, but have you ever see the actual footage of Hamas command centres? Also pretty sure there was no Hamas involved in the case below: > In one of the most egregious cases, the Commission investigated the killing of five-year-old Hind Rajab, along with her extended family, and the shelling of a Palestinian Red Crescent Society ambulance and killing of two paramedics sent to rescue her. The Commission determined on reasonable grounds that the Israeli Army’s 162nd Division operated in the area and is responsible for killing the family of seven, shelling the ambulance and killing the two paramedics inside. This constitutes the war crimes of wilful killing and an attack against civilian objects. Also for the first point, you can read more about it in NYT (if you have the subscription) here: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/opinion/gaza-children-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/opinion/gaza-children-dea... Some people accused it as fake, but NYT themselves had rigorously verified the evidences and found it to be true: https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/ https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on...

kombine 2y ago

> Yes, what Isreal is doing is bad, but not "murdering women and babies on purpose" bad! They are murdering children on purpose. Check the recent NY Times article by American doctors who worked in Gaza. Nearly all of them dealt with children shot in the head or in the chest on almost a daily basis. It is impossible to deny at this point that Israel is carrying out an extermination campaign there if not outright genocide.

jiggawatts 2y ago
Please see my other comments in my comment history. During times of war, doctors in trauma centres see a filtered (biased) sampling of injuries because of triage, prioritisation of kids over adults, etc...

no_exit 2y ago

> Yes, what Isreal is doing is bad, but not "murdering women and babies on purpose" bad! https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-killing-arabs/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-t-shirts-joke-about-kil... > Israeli soldiers wore T-shirts with a pregnant woman in cross-hairs and the slogan "1 Shot 2 Kills," adding to a growing furor in the country over allegations of misconduct by troops during the Gaza war. 2009 btw

rudnevr 2y ago

[flagged]

jiggawatts 2y ago
I’m just trying to stay as close to the facts as possible… which is that yeah, about 50 kids died daily on average during this war. Even the low estimates divided by the number of days since the start result in about 50 daily deaths. I would expect that number to vary a lot day to day, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least a few days near the beginning where over 100 kids died in a 24 hour period.