8 ms·

Ireland's big school secret: how a year off-curriculum changes teenage lives

205 points by joveian 2y ago

artemonster 2y ago
[flagged]
- piva00 2y ago
  > Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting. I suggest you re-read this list: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - Rendello 2y ago
    Is the overall quality tangential?
    - piva00 2y ago
      I'd say so, it doesn't develop any discussion or conversation, it's bike shedding. Even more that overall quality is a question of judgment, I read the article perfectly fine and the writing style wasn't a distraction. What do you think we gain in the discussion by debating the quality of writing (which was entirely passable) instead of the substance of it? To me it's quite clear: absolutely nothing.
      - theodric 2y ago
        'Bike shedding', in the context of the current Irish bike shed controversy - heh
        LinuxAmbulance 2y ago
        What is the Irish bike shed controversy?
        KineticLensman 2y ago
        https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/2024/09/06/its-not-even-a-shed-a-summary-of-the-leinster-house-bike-shelter-controversy/ https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/2024/09/06/its-not-eve...
        talideon 2y ago
        Oof! Too soon!
  - stetrain 2y ago
    I wouldn't call the quality and readability of the written text "tangential", it's not about the CSS styling. I don't think it's quite as bad as the above commenter seems to think it is, but they're welcome to that opinion.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
      > I wouldn't call the quality and readability of the written text "tangential" The topic in this comment section is the "transition year" in Irish secondary schools. The format of the website which introduces that topic is tangential to that topic. I don't know where one would get the idea that a tangent that's not about CSS styling is not a tangent.
      - stetrain 2y ago
        The topic is also a specific article about that transition year. I don't think that commenting about an article being particularly well-written, easy to understand, or having nice examples would be against the guidelines here. If discussion of anything but the underlying subject of the link - including references to the writer, quality, and content of the writing - were considered tangential to the point of being against the guidelines to discuss, then surely so would commenting that another comment is against the guidelines.
- umeshunni 2y ago
  I ran it through ChatGPT with a prompt to remove "unnecessary linguistic complications" Niall Hare, a 63-year-old headteacher in Dublin, explains the importance of bike maintenance and philosophy in Irish culture while discussing what students do during their "transition year" (TY), which is the optional fourth year of the Irish secondary school system. After completing a three-year junior cycle, students can either go straight into the two-year senior cycle or take a transition year, seen as a sort of gap year. Transition year has no set curriculum but includes mandatory subjects like Irish, English, maths, and PE for two hours a week, along with work experience and career guidance. Schools are free to design the rest of the program. Hare's TY program for 2024-25 includes subjects like Chinese, folklore, law, and workshops on consent and relationships. Students explore a variety of activities, from arts and coding to aviation and boxing. Although not graded, participation is required. Notable Irish actors Paul Mescal and Cillian Murphy both discovered their love for acting during TY. The year provides opportunities for students to explore new interests and develop life skills. Kacey, a current student, talks about overcoming her fear of driving, while others highlight learning practical skills like preparing a CV and using a bus timetable. TY, which began as a pilot program in 1974 and was rolled out nationally in 1994, now has 99% of schools offering it, and nearly 80% of students participate. It was the brainchild of Richard Burke, who wanted to create a space where students could take a break from the academic grind and explore the arts. The program has evolved to include work experience, reflecting changes in market expectations. Despite some criticism, including complaints about its cost and accessibility, TY is widely regarded as a positive experience. Studies suggest TY participants score higher on their Leaving Certificate exams. The program allows students to discover new passions, build confidence, and gain life skills, benefiting both students and teachers. However, challenges remain in ensuring equitable access for all students, especially those from lower-income families.
  - kenjackson 2y ago
    Thanks for providing that. I did read the article, but that is actually a pretty good summary. I do agree with the other commenter -- despite all of the downvotes they got -- I did find that article especially cumbersome to read. A browser button to rewrite articles in different styles could actually be useful.
SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
It seems like such a year could be either revelatory or totally miserable, depending what you got and what type of person you are. Just the thought of many of those activities brings me back to all my school year anxieties.
MattPalmer1086 2y ago
Sounds like a great idea. In England, I've seen education get consistently more rigid and inflexible over the years. All about tests, tests and more tests. Teachers leave the profession, children turn off. And as it consistently fails to produce better results, the answer is always to do more of what has failed. Bring something like this to England, please!
- soperj 2y ago
  Sounds like Bill Gates has gotten a hold of your school system as well.
  - sixo 2y ago
    sounds like you have something to say but can't be bothered to say it
    - snozolli 2y ago
      I was curious, so I googled it. I'm guessing GP is talking about this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/06/29/bill-gates-spent-hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars-to-improve-teaching-new-report-says-it-was-a-bust/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/06/... The aim was to create teacher evaluation systems that depended on student standardized test scores and observations by “peer evaluators.” These systems, it was conjectured, could identify the teachers who were most effective in improving student academic performance. (it's not clear to me if this created any standardized tests for students, or just depended on existing ones) Sounds like it ran from 2009-2015ish. If Bill Gates is going to be brought up, then I guess George W. Bush should be, too, with No Child Left Behind. AFAIK that's what kicked off the trend of standardized testing for students in the U.S.
    - soperj 2y ago
      Gates Foundation put an outsized amount of money into getting support for Common Core, standardized testing and merit pay for teachers. - https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/got-dough-how-billionaires-rule-our-schools/ https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/got-dough-how-billio...
datadrivenangel 2y ago
I took a year off after high school in the US to work part time and take welding and accounting courses at the local community college. Great experience that convinced me that I did actually want to go to university.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure that if I had taken auto shop or welding in high school (it was still offered, but I was "college-bound" and steered away from anything in that wing of the building) or in a "gap year" I would have ended up doing something in that field. I love making stuff and repairing stuff. I also was interested in computers and programming them, I think there's a lot of overlap there in terms of motivations.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    I still love making and repairing stuff. The pay and physical toil are better behind a keyboard though.
anotherhue 2y ago
20 years ago it was considered a 'doss year' (waste/screw-around etc.), and the general perception was that it was for those that require a little more time in the oven developmentally before proceeding to the next stage. I was a child then so I don't know if that was true, but certainly the majority of people who took it were not academically inclined.
- Filligree 2y ago
  Which seems fair enough. There’s already a year difference between the youngest and oldest student in any given class; if you want your children to do well, make sure they’re among the oldest. The problem is it might come too late to change their self-perception. A year is a lot of time when you’re nine
  - wiredfool 2y ago
    TY is typically at 15ish.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      A year is still a lot then. You can do a lot in a year if you don't have to worry about earning a living and have the time to engage in things that are interesting.
    - Filligree 2y ago
      That's the problem — it might well be far too late.
- Macha 2y ago
  It was both extremes when I did it 15 years ago. Those who needed it just to catch up on what they were supposed to have learned in junior cycle and those who wanted a bunch of extra curriculars for whatever reason. Note that admission to college/university in Ireland is not a motivator for extra curriculars - for school leavers the only things that matter are your overall grades, and for some courses, grades in specific subjects. (For foreign students, over 25s, those with special needs etc. there's a 10% or so allocation for an alternative process which is more subjective application based. But the 90% go through the purely grades based CAO) Think it varies a lot school to school and sometimes even year to year.
grej 2y ago
https://archive.is/duzFR https://archive.is/duzFR
wiredfool 2y ago
In Ireland -- with one kid in Junior Cert and one who did Junior Cert, then had an external Transition Year, then self studied for A levels, and one who's done home school/self study through GCSE and now doing A levels. It's an optional, definitely not universal thing. Not all schools offer it, and even then I get the impression that it's well less than half the students take the opportunity. The implementation is also highly school dependent, which is either totally expected or a complete surprise, given that the rest of the curriculum and tests are all national level standards. This article paints a far rosier picture than I've really seen from the local experiences, but that's probably as much the lack of drive at the school than anything else. My eldest's TY experience with us was great -- we took the opportunity to AirB&B around Europe, at least till Covid hit. But we were totally comfortable with dealing with the home schooling part of that for the three of them.
- Loughla 2y ago
  What are A levels, by the way? I hear this a lot on British television but have no context.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    The highest qualification you'll get from a school in the UK. Typically studied for between ages 16-18. They are the most common qualification used for university entry by students who go through the UK school system. Unlike some other systems where students stud a broad spectrum of subjects (with core subjects like maths, english and science being compulsory), students typically only study 3 (or maybe 4) subjects a A level (with subjects being things like "maths", "geography", "chemistry", etc), with no compulsory subjects.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Britain used to have "Ordinary level" (O levels) at age ~16 and "Advanced level" exams (A levels) at ~18. Students usually studied 5-8 O levels and then either left school to pursue a career or went on to study (usually) 3 A levels and go to university. O levels got replaced back in the 80's. A levels never got renamed.
aj7 2y ago
Folklore?
jamesblonde 2y ago
Patrick Collison (Stripe) credits the Transition Year in Ireland for his computer interest " Ireland actually has this interesting thing called “transition year,” this year between two major exams of high school or at least Ireland’s high school equivalent.Transition year is a formally designated year that’s optional, where you can go and pursue things that you might not otherwise naturally tend to pursue, and the school tends to be much more permissive of going and spending three months abroad or going and doing some work experience in this area or whatever the case may be. And so, in that year, I basically decided to spend as much of it as possible programming, and so I did that.”" https://networkcapital.beehiiv.com/p/stripe-ceo-patrick-collisons-parents-subtle-art-not-helicopter-parent https://networkcapital.beehiiv.com/p/stripe-ceo-patrick-coll...
petesergeant 2y ago
> What he really wanted to close was the cultural gap between rich and poor This sounds great! > Then there is the financial aspect of TY: some parents just can’t afford it. oh for fuck's sake
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Yep! Good extracurriculars are expensive. I remember taking part in Debate, MUN, XC, DECA, Wrestling, Quiz Bowl, Volunteering (NHS/CSF), and a bunch of Olympiads in HS and there was always a cost associated with participating (either a fee or the need to travel to the place hosting the EC). Unsurprisingly, this meant ECs would skew upper middle class and upper class. Sadly, these same ECs are also blockers for college admissions. I might get hate for this on HN, but this is why I support unweighted GPA, relative class ranking, and SAT/ACT for college admissions - sort of like what the UCs do. It's the least bad option out of the other options. Alternatively, going open entry with university admissions and then ramping up the difficulty with weedout classes is a good option as well.
  - sodality2 2y ago
    Open entry would change a lot of things - lots of schools and rankings use drop out rate as a proxy for how useful attending there is, because of the assumption that if the dropout rate is higher, there's a worse education. It would at least upend the old saying about the hardest part about some colleges is getting in. I agree with the SAT/ACT part - they pushed "holistic review" during Covid but ultimately SAT prep is way lower barrier (Khan Academy) than gobs of ECs.
    - heisenzombie 2y ago
      Open admission is an interesting way to do things. I spent a bit of time in Belgium where the main universities will accept anyone who has a high-school level education. The first year dropout rate can be 70% in some courses. This system seemed to be very well loved by Belgians. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2010-8-en.pdf https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2010-... Notably the US has the lowest dropout rate, so obviously they are pre-filtering students hard. That necessarily means that there are lots of people who /could/ have succeeded but were excluded at the admissions stage. The degree to which that's the right choice probably depends on whether you think doing a year of university and then leaving is a huge waste, a horrible failure, or a worthwhile experiment. (The unique economics of US universities obviously interact with this calculus in pretty major ways.)
sollewitt 2y ago
In TY in 1998 I: worked at an architect's, an archeologist's, a hospital, an epidemiological research institute where I got to use _my own computer_ all day - decided I needed to work with computers, got a summer job there. earned the President's Award medal had one class where we stripped an engine over the term got my first aid certificate learned how to develop film took night classes touch typing (on an electric typewriter) took part in the Irish language school music competition took German was in a play got an award at the Young Scientist I really developed as a person. I hadn't ever really stopped to think what my life would be like without that development but I suspect it was very beneficial. It certainly wasn't a "doss" - and it started to grow a self determination muscle - find your own work experience, find projects you want to try etc.
- dotnet00 2y ago
  I often mention to people that graduate research helped me mature for this same reason. Prior to grad school, I just followed the strict well-defined path modern schooling tends to have - spend most time studying, very limited investment in hobbies and out-of-school friendships, get good grades, focus only on moving to the next year. My grades were great, but it left me as an underdeveloped anxious mess of a person who was incapable of being independent. Having a few years where I had to do things mostly on my own while still being somewhat 'sheltered' (because a research advisor doesn't have time to babysit, but also won't exploit you the way an employer can) helped me a lot to become my own person and to stop having panic attacks over trivial decisions. At a younger age, the same effect could've been achieved with one year. Plus, while everyone used to act like missing a year of ~high school would be a permanent blemish on a career, having gone through all this education, I feel that high school was the least consequential part of it. It could easily be replaced with a year of professional 'exploration' with no loss. Especially nowadays, where undergraduate degrees are very common (high school grades can already be entirely forgotten after obtaining a degree), and undergrad programs spend much of the first year redoing a lot of high school material to bring everyone up to the same level. As a result, when I have children of my own, I plan to emphasize this sort of exploration a lot more.
  - BeetleB 2y ago
Eumenes 2y ago
My child is too young for school but my partner and I expect to homeschool. We've talked about gap years in the childs early/mid teens for travel/backpacking/nature excursions. I wish fellowship and apprentice work was more commonplace in the younger years too. Get out of the classroom and experience the real world.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  How do you plan on your child building out their social skills? Surely a couple of playdates a week with a few other kids isn’t going to cut it.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    We homeschooled. When we worried about our kids' socialization, we yanked them into the bathroom and beat them up for their lunch money. I'm kidding, but... you want school to build your kids' social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult world, which is almost completely unlike school. Yeah, homeschooling can be done where the kids are isolated and never interact with anyone outside the family. It doesn't have to be, though.
    - squigz 2y ago
      > I'm kidding, but... you want school to build your kids' social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult world, which is almost completely unlike school. I mean... yes, it seems reasonable to learn social skills from a school setting? Interacting with other people, some of whom dislike/disagree with each other, interacting with other adults, etc. This seems like a reasonable step toward what you describe as 'the adult world' - which, yes, is rather different from school, but that seems a good thing; throwing a child into 'the adult world' without preparation would be crazy, right? (I'm not trying to deny that one can learn the necessary social skills while being homeschooled, just disagree with the implication that school is not also a good place to develop them)
cmcconomy 2y ago
In Quebec you find a similar program; elementary school is K-6, and high school is 7-11. Following this you can optionally attend an interstitial educational system called "CEGEP". It's government funded and costs next to nothing. CEGEP has two streams, pre-university or professional. For the latter, you learn skills like aircraft mechanics. For the former, you pick a stream that bulks up what would normally be first-year university courses like calculus, biology etc for a science stream. However, you are required to take approx 15-20% of your courses in an "opposite" stream to force you to get acquainted with other alternatives before you commit to university. In addition, the structure is much like university (you pick your classes & schedule, class sizes are increased compared to HS, your responsibility is increased) which is a good transition for university if that's where you're headed. I think it's a wonderful system and I wish it was more widespread.
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  .
  - Hello71 2y ago
    I googled "quebec educational attainment" and found https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/university-graduates-situation-quebec-canada https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/university-gradu..., which says that "Québec has the highest proportion of people aged 25 to 64 with any postsecondary certificate, diploma or degree (71.2%).". According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/467078/median-annual-family-income-in-canada-by-province/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/467078/median-annual-fam..., Quebec's median annual family income in 2021 was 96,910, almost the same as the median 98,390. The top "provinces" are Northwest Territories and Yukon, whose ways of doing things, for better or worse, cannot be easily copied to other provinces.
    - kridsdale3 2y ago
      Those two are very likely inflated incomes for people living in awful harsh conditions doing resource extraction.
tadhgpearson 2y ago
It works on the other end of the spectrum too. Much of my class just wanted to leave school at 16 to work on the family farm. TY gave them practical experience of running a business, stripping an engine, how to use an manage credit etc. before they went out in the world.
asdasdsddd 2y ago
I think a lot of the mental illness for young boys is that the education ladder deprives them of responsibility until way past maturity.
- acjohnson55 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, why do you think that's a problem for boys, in particular?
  - justonenote 2y ago
    can't answer for GP but most likely because he is male himself and so speaking to what he knows. Your question sounds like you are baiting, like you are pretending to be so naive that you are not aware that men and women face different expectations and circumstances growing up, and moreso there is something wrong with expressing concern for boys without also including girls. Maybe, hopefully, I'm reading you wrong.
    - asdasdsddd 2y ago
      Thank you, leftist universalism is really annoying to engage with. You could say, "its important to wash your hands" and they will ask you why you are being ableist and excluding people without hands.
      - watwut 2y ago
        In this case, someone asked completely inoffensive question in an inoffensive way asking for details ... you two went on an angry rant offended. This question literally could have a meaningful answer and someone even tried. Like, it is not clear whether any leftist even entered the discussion, the question could easily be asked by someone neutral or conservative. But it was definitely not a leftist who took offense over nothing.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
TRiG_Ireland 2y ago
TY was good to me, but I think it could have been better. As the article says, each school does it differently. We did a mini company, where we created knick knacks and tried to sell them. But the entire class of 30 students was one company, which was therefore quite badly organised. I remember the teachers saying that they wouldn't do it that way in future years. There was also orienteering. And we still did some academic classes. Maths, anyway. And I think some others. In my school, most of the kids didn't do TY, so there was just one class in TY, which meant that the maths, in particular, was fairly basic: there weren't enough of us for streaming. And jumping back into higher level maths in Fifth Year was, frankly, a bit of a shock to the system.
kayo_20211030 2y ago
The Cillian Murphy reference seems off. He might have been too old when it was mandated in 1994, even though it was available earlier. Anyone know for sure?
- talideon 2y ago
  He was born in '76, so it's possible his school was a trial school a few years earlier, but doesn't seem likely.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
talideon 2y ago
I was in one of the first years that did transition year, and it was almost nothing but good for me. It got me much more out of my shell and I was able to do subjects I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Art, in particular, thought there weren't enough subsequently in the senior cycle for me to continue with it, sadly. My work placements were fun in different ways: I worked in a electronics repair shop and learned to solder and basic electronics (I already had a healthy respect for high voltage), worked with some architects, and also in a music studio and got an understanding of music production. I've heard reasons for not doing it, but it's so good for broadening the horizons of who you think you are that almost all of those reasons are almost moot.
- colmmacc 2y ago
  I did transition year in 1996/1997, and I think we were only the second class to do it in my school. We took another European language for a year, and I did Art, Home Economics, Metalwork, and Woodworking classes that had no aptitude for and never would have picked for my leaving cert years. They were great and I learned skills that I still use. For my work placement, I worked in a folk instrument store and learned a lot about acoustic instruments, but also the basics of showing up on time, getting things done, and more. It was invaluable. The reduced pressure meant I could also work at the local McDonald's, and the income from 6 months of shift-work there made a big difference for me and my family. It was a start of some modest savings that allowed me to even consider going to college later (I still had to work through college, but at least it was doable). Transition Year, the introduction of Free Third Level Education, and the blinded CAO application process for universities were all game changers for me. I grew up in Ballyfermot, a working class part of Dublin, and when I went to college I found out there was still only a tiny handful of people from there who'd had that opportunity. Still so thankful.
  - talideon 2y ago
    That period of the '90s and early 2000s were a bit of a golden age when it came to education. I very much doubt I'd have been able to afford third level if it wasn't for when I went. The full grant and the fact that fees were abolished meant I could actually make ends meet. Didn't hurt that Cork was a pretty inexpensive place to go to college at the time! Second year was more of a struggle with money, but doable. If I could do anything regarding education, it'd be guaranteeing that same chance to people now that we had then.
kaycebasques 2y ago
Are there any US parents here who strongly nudged their children to take a transition year? When my girl grows up I'm leaning towards that direction because I really wish someone would have suggested it for me when I was that age.
h_tbob 2y ago
Everybody mocks me when I say this. But the most productive people in the world spent their time doing what they thought was fun. It’s like our biology is smarter than us. If it’s fun our brains are telling us there’s something about it we need. It’s like when you think a girl is cute for the first time. There’s no logic in it to you, but it’s the most logical thing in the world, that’s why it’s fun. Hans Zimmer used to just like play with all kinds of stuff when he was young just to see what it would sound like. I listened to an intel exec (after pat came back) and he talked about how he was disassembling and reassembling the house electronics as a kid. Or me - I would just code for fun and my dad got me some books on it. I hardly ever did any school on it. If we let kids just do what they want and have fun, I think they would get good at what they love and have fulfilling careers. If you have to do what your told your whole life - who even wants to live it? So maybe we just let kids have their freedom. I know it sounds crazy but what if we applied the rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness to them? I think they would amaze us. Kids are so clever, I think we would have so much creativity our minds would be blown! To conclude I think that we have a dearth of people who know what to do. So many employees and fewer small businesses. I think if we give kids freedom, the chance to figure out what they like doing, and how to do it, as adults they will be able to start businesses better and manage them. Just my thoughts!
- roenxi 2y ago
  You haven't accounted for selection bias there. It is quite likely most people don't find a productive activity fun and it is a much better plan to try and be somewhat wealthy doing something that inspires a neutral feeling rather than poor. Much like the girl you find cute on first glance, if you change your mind later then it'd have been a real mistake to over-commit on first impressions. If there are 10 people who want to be plumbers but the economy is signalling it needs 20 plumbers then it'd be best if 10 people who don't enjoy plumbing all that much do it for the money. If there are 100 people who want to make a living as an artist and only demand for 1 it'd be better if most of them overruled their instincts and found something more useful to do. Paint as a hobby and live as something else.
  - left-struck 2y ago
musicale 2y ago
This seems to disprove the idea that a year off from school will necessarily be a serious setback. Closing schools during covid might seem to support it, but there was also a global pandemic going on at the time. It would be interesting to compare TY during the pandemic vs. non-pandemic years.
tumblrinaowned 2y ago
Great. Let's model a failed country. If they were smart they would start with adding more and reducing it.
- secfirstmd 2y ago
  Failed country? By what measure? One of the highest GNPs per person, one of the most democratic, one of the highest winners of novel prizes for literature per population, one of the safest countries in the world, one of the most food secure countries in the world, overall very good and mostly free health and education, a high redistributive tax system, friendly people, easy place to work...
- piltdownman 2y ago
  Lol. Cope harder.
  - tumblrinaowned 2y ago
    Lel. By what measure Ireland is developed? Country is riddled with foreign population. Birtharates are falling to the point of no recovery. No access to abortion and health services are so far behind. Claims to be christian but can't even unite the broken part of country. So much violence in the country. Man, if you are rich and white, it's great. If you are not white, it is done deal and you will never get ahead. @piltdownman - Listen YWNBW and successful. Keep commenting here like you are birtch of HN.
    - piltdownman 2y ago
      What crazy fasco-nationalist rant are you indulging yourself in now? That poisonous diatribe is the product of a truly fractured mind.
secfirstmd 2y ago
I worked at the MIT Media Lab Europe and in the army for my transition yeah. Oh and drank a lot of beer. Great times!
JackMorgan 2y ago
A few things make this effective: freedom to follow one's curiosity, personal responsibility, and intrinsic motivation over extrinsic. I used to teach public middle school, and I developed a profound belief that how we educate students is entirely backwards. The things that make an off year effective scales to an entire K-12 program! See the free democratic schools like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school I believe the majority of students would thrive in such a school, if they had the chance. They have no formal classes, no teachers, no tests. Yet students still learn to read earlier, they read more and at a higher level. They graduate from college at higher rates, and have higher rates of entrepreneurship. I believe this model is a superior pedagogical model for the majority of the population. "The Sudbury pedagogical philosophy may be summarized as the following: Learning is a natural by-product of all human activity. Learning is self-initiated and self-motivated. The educational model states that there are many ways to learn and that learning is a process someone does, not a process that is done to him or her; According to the model the presence and guidance of a teacher is not necessary. " Check out: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools https://www.phillyfreeschool.org/why-it-works https://www.phillyfreeschool.org/why-it-works The problem is we are stuck with our current model - even when alternatives have better outcomes, parents just say "well my kid would not do well with that, they are too lazy to even do what we ask." They do not realize that our current model is so broken that disinterest in a student is a perfectly rational response. For example, I think video game addiction is a natural response to being forced to do something you hate 8-12 hours a day. The fact that the Philly Free School has very few students ever even playing video games at all (but they are allowed to all day if they want) paints a very clear picture that video games are a symptom not a cause. And finally, a damning indictment of our current model; https://cantrip.org/gatto.html https://cantrip.org/gatto.html
patrickwalton 2y ago
I had this in the U.S. and it was one of the best things that ever happened to me. My parents signed me up for homeschool every year, but I still did public school. As a result, I just did whatever classes I wanted. Junior year, I realized that I'd have to drop all my fun classes and just do core for the last year and a half to graduate. Decided instead to not graduate and just find books on different topics from the library. Ended up with: - Huckleberry Finn - a deep History book on Roman Britain - a nonfiction coffee table book on space - an intro to physics workbook - a Spanish book - a book on governments around the world As it happened, I worked through 4 big space books and realized that I was really passionate about space. When I started college it was easy to plan my direction and be motivated because I knew the area I wanted to work in.
koko489 2y ago
[dead]

205 points by joveian 2y ago

artemonster 2y ago

[flagged]

piva00 2y ago
> Please don't complain about tangential annoyances—e.g. article or website formats, name collisions, or back-button breakage. They're too common to be interesting. I suggest you re-read this list: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Rendello 2y ago
  Is the overall quality tangential?
  - piva00 2y ago
    I'd say so, it doesn't develop any discussion or conversation, it's bike shedding. Even more that overall quality is a question of judgment, I read the article perfectly fine and the writing style wasn't a distraction. What do you think we gain in the discussion by debating the quality of writing (which was entirely passable) instead of the substance of it? To me it's quite clear: absolutely nothing.
    - theodric 2y ago
      'Bike shedding', in the context of the current Irish bike shed controversy - heh
      - LinuxAmbulance 2y ago
        What is the Irish bike shed controversy?
        KineticLensman 2y ago
        https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/2024/09/06/its-not-even-a-shed-a-summary-of-the-leinster-house-bike-shelter-controversy/ https://www.irishtimes.com/life-style/2024/09/06/its-not-eve...
        talideon 2y ago
        Oof! Too soon!
- stetrain 2y ago
  I wouldn't call the quality and readability of the written text "tangential", it's not about the CSS styling. I don't think it's quite as bad as the above commenter seems to think it is, but they're welcome to that opinion.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    > I wouldn't call the quality and readability of the written text "tangential" The topic in this comment section is the "transition year" in Irish secondary schools. The format of the website which introduces that topic is tangential to that topic. I don't know where one would get the idea that a tangent that's not about CSS styling is not a tangent.
    - stetrain 2y ago
      The topic is also a specific article about that transition year. I don't think that commenting about an article being particularly well-written, easy to understand, or having nice examples would be against the guidelines here. If discussion of anything but the underlying subject of the link - including references to the writer, quality, and content of the writing - were considered tangential to the point of being against the guidelines to discuss, then surely so would commenting that another comment is against the guidelines.
umeshunni 2y ago
I ran it through ChatGPT with a prompt to remove "unnecessary linguistic complications" Niall Hare, a 63-year-old headteacher in Dublin, explains the importance of bike maintenance and philosophy in Irish culture while discussing what students do during their "transition year" (TY), which is the optional fourth year of the Irish secondary school system. After completing a three-year junior cycle, students can either go straight into the two-year senior cycle or take a transition year, seen as a sort of gap year. Transition year has no set curriculum but includes mandatory subjects like Irish, English, maths, and PE for two hours a week, along with work experience and career guidance. Schools are free to design the rest of the program. Hare's TY program for 2024-25 includes subjects like Chinese, folklore, law, and workshops on consent and relationships. Students explore a variety of activities, from arts and coding to aviation and boxing. Although not graded, participation is required. Notable Irish actors Paul Mescal and Cillian Murphy both discovered their love for acting during TY. The year provides opportunities for students to explore new interests and develop life skills. Kacey, a current student, talks about overcoming her fear of driving, while others highlight learning practical skills like preparing a CV and using a bus timetable. TY, which began as a pilot program in 1974 and was rolled out nationally in 1994, now has 99% of schools offering it, and nearly 80% of students participate. It was the brainchild of Richard Burke, who wanted to create a space where students could take a break from the academic grind and explore the arts. The program has evolved to include work experience, reflecting changes in market expectations. Despite some criticism, including complaints about its cost and accessibility, TY is widely regarded as a positive experience. Studies suggest TY participants score higher on their Leaving Certificate exams. The program allows students to discover new passions, build confidence, and gain life skills, benefiting both students and teachers. However, challenges remain in ensuring equitable access for all students, especially those from lower-income families.
- kenjackson 2y ago
  Thanks for providing that. I did read the article, but that is actually a pretty good summary. I do agree with the other commenter -- despite all of the downvotes they got -- I did find that article especially cumbersome to read. A browser button to rewrite articles in different styles could actually be useful.

SketchySeaBeast 2y ago

It seems like such a year could be either revelatory or totally miserable, depending what you got and what type of person you are. Just the thought of many of those activities brings me back to all my school year anxieties.

MattPalmer1086 2y ago

Sounds like a great idea. In England, I've seen education get consistently more rigid and inflexible over the years. All about tests, tests and more tests. Teachers leave the profession, children turn off. And as it consistently fails to produce better results, the answer is always to do more of what has failed. Bring something like this to England, please!

soperj 2y ago
Sounds like Bill Gates has gotten a hold of your school system as well.
- sixo 2y ago
  sounds like you have something to say but can't be bothered to say it
  - snozolli 2y ago
    I was curious, so I googled it. I'm guessing GP is talking about this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/06/29/bill-gates-spent-hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars-to-improve-teaching-new-report-says-it-was-a-bust/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/06/... The aim was to create teacher evaluation systems that depended on student standardized test scores and observations by “peer evaluators.” These systems, it was conjectured, could identify the teachers who were most effective in improving student academic performance. (it's not clear to me if this created any standardized tests for students, or just depended on existing ones) Sounds like it ran from 2009-2015ish. If Bill Gates is going to be brought up, then I guess George W. Bush should be, too, with No Child Left Behind. AFAIK that's what kicked off the trend of standardized testing for students in the U.S.
  - soperj 2y ago
    Gates Foundation put an outsized amount of money into getting support for Common Core, standardized testing and merit pay for teachers. - https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/got-dough-how-billionaires-rule-our-schools/ https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/got-dough-how-billio...

datadrivenangel 2y ago

I took a year off after high school in the US to work part time and take welding and accounting courses at the local community college. Great experience that convinced me that I did actually want to go to university.

SoftTalker 2y ago
I'm pretty sure that if I had taken auto shop or welding in high school (it was still offered, but I was "college-bound" and steered away from anything in that wing of the building) or in a "gap year" I would have ended up doing something in that field. I love making stuff and repairing stuff. I also was interested in computers and programming them, I think there's a lot of overlap there in terms of motivations.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  I still love making and repairing stuff. The pay and physical toil are better behind a keyboard though.

anotherhue 2y ago

20 years ago it was considered a 'doss year' (waste/screw-around etc.), and the general perception was that it was for those that require a little more time in the oven developmentally before proceeding to the next stage. I was a child then so I don't know if that was true, but certainly the majority of people who took it were not academically inclined.

Filligree 2y ago
Which seems fair enough. There’s already a year difference between the youngest and oldest student in any given class; if you want your children to do well, make sure they’re among the oldest. The problem is it might come too late to change their self-perception. A year is a lot of time when you’re nine
- wiredfool 2y ago
  TY is typically at 15ish.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    A year is still a lot then. You can do a lot in a year if you don't have to worry about earning a living and have the time to engage in things that are interesting.
  - Filligree 2y ago
    That's the problem — it might well be far too late.
Macha 2y ago
It was both extremes when I did it 15 years ago. Those who needed it just to catch up on what they were supposed to have learned in junior cycle and those who wanted a bunch of extra curriculars for whatever reason. Note that admission to college/university in Ireland is not a motivator for extra curriculars - for school leavers the only things that matter are your overall grades, and for some courses, grades in specific subjects. (For foreign students, over 25s, those with special needs etc. there's a 10% or so allocation for an alternative process which is more subjective application based. But the 90% go through the purely grades based CAO) Think it varies a lot school to school and sometimes even year to year.

grej 2y ago

https://archive.is/duzFR https://archive.is/duzFR

wiredfool 2y ago

In Ireland -- with one kid in Junior Cert and one who did Junior Cert, then had an external Transition Year, then self studied for A levels, and one who's done home school/self study through GCSE and now doing A levels. It's an optional, definitely not universal thing. Not all schools offer it, and even then I get the impression that it's well less than half the students take the opportunity. The implementation is also highly school dependent, which is either totally expected or a complete surprise, given that the rest of the curriculum and tests are all national level standards. This article paints a far rosier picture than I've really seen from the local experiences, but that's probably as much the lack of drive at the school than anything else. My eldest's TY experience with us was great -- we took the opportunity to AirB&B around Europe, at least till Covid hit. But we were totally comfortable with dealing with the home schooling part of that for the three of them.

Loughla 2y ago
What are A levels, by the way? I hear this a lot on British television but have no context.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  The highest qualification you'll get from a school in the UK. Typically studied for between ages 16-18. They are the most common qualification used for university entry by students who go through the UK school system. Unlike some other systems where students stud a broad spectrum of subjects (with core subjects like maths, english and science being compulsory), students typically only study 3 (or maybe 4) subjects a A level (with subjects being things like "maths", "geography", "chemistry", etc), with no compulsory subjects.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Britain used to have "Ordinary level" (O levels) at age ~16 and "Advanced level" exams (A levels) at ~18. Students usually studied 5-8 O levels and then either left school to pursue a career or went on to study (usually) 3 A levels and go to university. O levels got replaced back in the 80's. A levels never got renamed.

aj7 2y ago

Folklore?

jamesblonde 2y ago

Patrick Collison (Stripe) credits the Transition Year in Ireland for his computer interest " Ireland actually has this interesting thing called “transition year,” this year between two major exams of high school or at least Ireland’s high school equivalent.Transition year is a formally designated year that’s optional, where you can go and pursue things that you might not otherwise naturally tend to pursue, and the school tends to be much more permissive of going and spending three months abroad or going and doing some work experience in this area or whatever the case may be. And so, in that year, I basically decided to spend as much of it as possible programming, and so I did that.”" https://networkcapital.beehiiv.com/p/stripe-ceo-patrick-collisons-parents-subtle-art-not-helicopter-parent https://networkcapital.beehiiv.com/p/stripe-ceo-patrick-coll...

petesergeant 2y ago

> What he really wanted to close was the cultural gap between rich and poor This sounds great! > Then there is the financial aspect of TY: some parents just can’t afford it. oh for fuck's sake

alephnerd 2y ago
Yep! Good extracurriculars are expensive. I remember taking part in Debate, MUN, XC, DECA, Wrestling, Quiz Bowl, Volunteering (NHS/CSF), and a bunch of Olympiads in HS and there was always a cost associated with participating (either a fee or the need to travel to the place hosting the EC). Unsurprisingly, this meant ECs would skew upper middle class and upper class. Sadly, these same ECs are also blockers for college admissions. I might get hate for this on HN, but this is why I support unweighted GPA, relative class ranking, and SAT/ACT for college admissions - sort of like what the UCs do. It's the least bad option out of the other options. Alternatively, going open entry with university admissions and then ramping up the difficulty with weedout classes is a good option as well.
- sodality2 2y ago
  Open entry would change a lot of things - lots of schools and rankings use drop out rate as a proxy for how useful attending there is, because of the assumption that if the dropout rate is higher, there's a worse education. It would at least upend the old saying about the hardest part about some colleges is getting in. I agree with the SAT/ACT part - they pushed "holistic review" during Covid but ultimately SAT prep is way lower barrier (Khan Academy) than gobs of ECs.
  - heisenzombie 2y ago
    Open admission is an interesting way to do things. I spent a bit of time in Belgium where the main universities will accept anyone who has a high-school level education. The first year dropout rate can be 70% in some courses. This system seemed to be very well loved by Belgians. https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2010-8-en.pdf https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/eag_highlights-2010-... Notably the US has the lowest dropout rate, so obviously they are pre-filtering students hard. That necessarily means that there are lots of people who /could/ have succeeded but were excluded at the admissions stage. The degree to which that's the right choice probably depends on whether you think doing a year of university and then leaving is a huge waste, a horrible failure, or a worthwhile experiment. (The unique economics of US universities obviously interact with this calculus in pretty major ways.)

sollewitt 2y ago

In TY in 1998 I: worked at an architect's, an archeologist's, a hospital, an epidemiological research institute where I got to use _my own computer_ all day - decided I needed to work with computers, got a summer job there. earned the President's Award medal had one class where we stripped an engine over the term got my first aid certificate learned how to develop film took night classes touch typing (on an electric typewriter) took part in the Irish language school music competition took German was in a play got an award at the Young Scientist I really developed as a person. I hadn't ever really stopped to think what my life would be like without that development but I suspect it was very beneficial. It certainly wasn't a "doss" - and it started to grow a self determination muscle - find your own work experience, find projects you want to try etc.

dotnet00 2y ago
I often mention to people that graduate research helped me mature for this same reason. Prior to grad school, I just followed the strict well-defined path modern schooling tends to have - spend most time studying, very limited investment in hobbies and out-of-school friendships, get good grades, focus only on moving to the next year. My grades were great, but it left me as an underdeveloped anxious mess of a person who was incapable of being independent. Having a few years where I had to do things mostly on my own while still being somewhat 'sheltered' (because a research advisor doesn't have time to babysit, but also won't exploit you the way an employer can) helped me a lot to become my own person and to stop having panic attacks over trivial decisions. At a younger age, the same effect could've been achieved with one year. Plus, while everyone used to act like missing a year of ~high school would be a permanent blemish on a career, having gone through all this education, I feel that high school was the least consequential part of it. It could easily be replaced with a year of professional 'exploration' with no loss. Especially nowadays, where undergraduate degrees are very common (high school grades can already be entirely forgotten after obtaining a degree), and undergrad programs spend much of the first year redoing a lot of high school material to bring everyone up to the same level. As a result, when I have children of my own, I plan to emphasize this sort of exploration a lot more.
- BeetleB 2y ago

Eumenes 2y ago

My child is too young for school but my partner and I expect to homeschool. We've talked about gap years in the childs early/mid teens for travel/backpacking/nature excursions. I wish fellowship and apprentice work was more commonplace in the younger years too. Get out of the classroom and experience the real world.

dyauspitr 2y ago
How do you plan on your child building out their social skills? Surely a couple of playdates a week with a few other kids isn’t going to cut it.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  We homeschooled. When we worried about our kids' socialization, we yanked them into the bathroom and beat them up for their lunch money. I'm kidding, but... you want school to build your kids' social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult world, which is almost completely unlike school. Yeah, homeschooling can be done where the kids are isolated and never interact with anyone outside the family. It doesn't have to be, though.
  - squigz 2y ago
    > I'm kidding, but... you want school to build your kids' social skills? Apart from all the pathologies common in schools, you want your kids to grow up to live in an adult world, which is almost completely unlike school. I mean... yes, it seems reasonable to learn social skills from a school setting? Interacting with other people, some of whom dislike/disagree with each other, interacting with other adults, etc. This seems like a reasonable step toward what you describe as 'the adult world' - which, yes, is rather different from school, but that seems a good thing; throwing a child into 'the adult world' without preparation would be crazy, right? (I'm not trying to deny that one can learn the necessary social skills while being homeschooled, just disagree with the implication that school is not also a good place to develop them)

cmcconomy 2y ago

In Quebec you find a similar program; elementary school is K-6, and high school is 7-11. Following this you can optionally attend an interstitial educational system called "CEGEP". It's government funded and costs next to nothing. CEGEP has two streams, pre-university or professional. For the latter, you learn skills like aircraft mechanics. For the former, you pick a stream that bulks up what would normally be first-year university courses like calculus, biology etc for a science stream. However, you are required to take approx 15-20% of your courses in an "opposite" stream to force you to get acquainted with other alternatives before you commit to university. In addition, the structure is much like university (you pick your classes & schedule, class sizes are increased compared to HS, your responsibility is increased) which is a good transition for university if that's where you're headed. I think it's a wonderful system and I wish it was more widespread.

WorkerBee28474 2y ago
.
- Hello71 2y ago
  I googled "quebec educational attainment" and found https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/university-graduates-situation-quebec-canada https://statistique.quebec.ca/en/communique/university-gradu..., which says that "Québec has the highest proportion of people aged 25 to 64 with any postsecondary certificate, diploma or degree (71.2%).". According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/467078/median-annual-family-income-in-canada-by-province/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/467078/median-annual-fam..., Quebec's median annual family income in 2021 was 96,910, almost the same as the median 98,390. The top "provinces" are Northwest Territories and Yukon, whose ways of doing things, for better or worse, cannot be easily copied to other provinces.
  - kridsdale3 2y ago
    Those two are very likely inflated incomes for people living in awful harsh conditions doing resource extraction.

tadhgpearson 2y ago

It works on the other end of the spectrum too. Much of my class just wanted to leave school at 16 to work on the family farm. TY gave them practical experience of running a business, stripping an engine, how to use an manage credit etc. before they went out in the world.

asdasdsddd 2y ago

I think a lot of the mental illness for young boys is that the education ladder deprives them of responsibility until way past maturity.

acjohnson55 2y ago
Out of curiosity, why do you think that's a problem for boys, in particular?
- justonenote 2y ago
  can't answer for GP but most likely because he is male himself and so speaking to what he knows. Your question sounds like you are baiting, like you are pretending to be so naive that you are not aware that men and women face different expectations and circumstances growing up, and moreso there is something wrong with expressing concern for boys without also including girls. Maybe, hopefully, I'm reading you wrong.
  - asdasdsddd 2y ago
    Thank you, leftist universalism is really annoying to engage with. You could say, "its important to wash your hands" and they will ask you why you are being ableist and excluding people without hands.
    - watwut 2y ago
      In this case, someone asked completely inoffensive question in an inoffensive way asking for details ... you two went on an angry rant offended. This question literally could have a meaningful answer and someone even tried. Like, it is not clear whether any leftist even entered the discussion, the question could easily be asked by someone neutral or conservative. But it was definitely not a leftist who took offense over nothing.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

TRiG_Ireland 2y ago

TY was good to me, but I think it could have been better. As the article says, each school does it differently. We did a mini company, where we created knick knacks and tried to sell them. But the entire class of 30 students was one company, which was therefore quite badly organised. I remember the teachers saying that they wouldn't do it that way in future years. There was also orienteering. And we still did some academic classes. Maths, anyway. And I think some others. In my school, most of the kids didn't do TY, so there was just one class in TY, which meant that the maths, in particular, was fairly basic: there weren't enough of us for streaming. And jumping back into higher level maths in Fifth Year was, frankly, a bit of a shock to the system.

kayo_20211030 2y ago

The Cillian Murphy reference seems off. He might have been too old when it was mandated in 1994, even though it was available earlier. Anyone know for sure?

talideon 2y ago
He was born in '76, so it's possible his school was a trial school a few years earlier, but doesn't seem likely.

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

talideon 2y ago

I was in one of the first years that did transition year, and it was almost nothing but good for me. It got me much more out of my shell and I was able to do subjects I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Art, in particular, thought there weren't enough subsequently in the senior cycle for me to continue with it, sadly. My work placements were fun in different ways: I worked in a electronics repair shop and learned to solder and basic electronics (I already had a healthy respect for high voltage), worked with some architects, and also in a music studio and got an understanding of music production. I've heard reasons for not doing it, but it's so good for broadening the horizons of who you think you are that almost all of those reasons are almost moot.

colmmacc 2y ago
I did transition year in 1996/1997, and I think we were only the second class to do it in my school. We took another European language for a year, and I did Art, Home Economics, Metalwork, and Woodworking classes that had no aptitude for and never would have picked for my leaving cert years. They were great and I learned skills that I still use. For my work placement, I worked in a folk instrument store and learned a lot about acoustic instruments, but also the basics of showing up on time, getting things done, and more. It was invaluable. The reduced pressure meant I could also work at the local McDonald's, and the income from 6 months of shift-work there made a big difference for me and my family. It was a start of some modest savings that allowed me to even consider going to college later (I still had to work through college, but at least it was doable). Transition Year, the introduction of Free Third Level Education, and the blinded CAO application process for universities were all game changers for me. I grew up in Ballyfermot, a working class part of Dublin, and when I went to college I found out there was still only a tiny handful of people from there who'd had that opportunity. Still so thankful.
- talideon 2y ago
  That period of the '90s and early 2000s were a bit of a golden age when it came to education. I very much doubt I'd have been able to afford third level if it wasn't for when I went. The full grant and the fact that fees were abolished meant I could actually make ends meet. Didn't hurt that Cork was a pretty inexpensive place to go to college at the time! Second year was more of a struggle with money, but doable. If I could do anything regarding education, it'd be guaranteeing that same chance to people now that we had then.

kaycebasques 2y ago

Are there any US parents here who strongly nudged their children to take a transition year? When my girl grows up I'm leaning towards that direction because I really wish someone would have suggested it for me when I was that age.

h_tbob 2y ago

Everybody mocks me when I say this. But the most productive people in the world spent their time doing what they thought was fun. It’s like our biology is smarter than us. If it’s fun our brains are telling us there’s something about it we need. It’s like when you think a girl is cute for the first time. There’s no logic in it to you, but it’s the most logical thing in the world, that’s why it’s fun. Hans Zimmer used to just like play with all kinds of stuff when he was young just to see what it would sound like. I listened to an intel exec (after pat came back) and he talked about how he was disassembling and reassembling the house electronics as a kid. Or me - I would just code for fun and my dad got me some books on it. I hardly ever did any school on it. If we let kids just do what they want and have fun, I think they would get good at what they love and have fulfilling careers. If you have to do what your told your whole life - who even wants to live it? So maybe we just let kids have their freedom. I know it sounds crazy but what if we applied the rights to life liberty and pursuit of happiness to them? I think they would amaze us. Kids are so clever, I think we would have so much creativity our minds would be blown! To conclude I think that we have a dearth of people who know what to do. So many employees and fewer small businesses. I think if we give kids freedom, the chance to figure out what they like doing, and how to do it, as adults they will be able to start businesses better and manage them. Just my thoughts!

roenxi 2y ago
You haven't accounted for selection bias there. It is quite likely most people don't find a productive activity fun and it is a much better plan to try and be somewhat wealthy doing something that inspires a neutral feeling rather than poor. Much like the girl you find cute on first glance, if you change your mind later then it'd have been a real mistake to over-commit on first impressions. If there are 10 people who want to be plumbers but the economy is signalling it needs 20 plumbers then it'd be best if 10 people who don't enjoy plumbing all that much do it for the money. If there are 100 people who want to make a living as an artist and only demand for 1 it'd be better if most of them overruled their instincts and found something more useful to do. Paint as a hobby and live as something else.
- left-struck 2y ago

musicale 2y ago

This seems to disprove the idea that a year off from school will necessarily be a serious setback. Closing schools during covid might seem to support it, but there was also a global pandemic going on at the time. It would be interesting to compare TY during the pandemic vs. non-pandemic years.

tumblrinaowned 2y ago

Great. Let's model a failed country. If they were smart they would start with adding more and reducing it.

secfirstmd 2y ago
Failed country? By what measure? One of the highest GNPs per person, one of the most democratic, one of the highest winners of novel prizes for literature per population, one of the safest countries in the world, one of the most food secure countries in the world, overall very good and mostly free health and education, a high redistributive tax system, friendly people, easy place to work...
piltdownman 2y ago
Lol. Cope harder.
- tumblrinaowned 2y ago
  Lel. By what measure Ireland is developed? Country is riddled with foreign population. Birtharates are falling to the point of no recovery. No access to abortion and health services are so far behind. Claims to be christian but can't even unite the broken part of country. So much violence in the country. Man, if you are rich and white, it's great. If you are not white, it is done deal and you will never get ahead. @piltdownman - Listen YWNBW and successful. Keep commenting here like you are birtch of HN.
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    What crazy fasco-nationalist rant are you indulging yourself in now? That poisonous diatribe is the product of a truly fractured mind.

secfirstmd 2y ago

I worked at the MIT Media Lab Europe and in the army for my transition yeah. Oh and drank a lot of beer. Great times!

JackMorgan 2y ago

A few things make this effective: freedom to follow one's curiosity, personal responsibility, and intrinsic motivation over extrinsic. I used to teach public middle school, and I developed a profound belief that how we educate students is entirely backwards. The things that make an off year effective scales to an entire K-12 program! See the free democratic schools like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school I believe the majority of students would thrive in such a school, if they had the chance. They have no formal classes, no teachers, no tests. Yet students still learn to read earlier, they read more and at a higher level. They graduate from college at higher rates, and have higher rates of entrepreneurship. I believe this model is a superior pedagogical model for the majority of the population. "The Sudbury pedagogical philosophy may be summarized as the following: Learning is a natural by-product of all human activity. Learning is self-initiated and self-motivated. The educational model states that there are many ways to learn and that learning is a process someone does, not a process that is done to him or her; According to the model the presence and guidance of a teacher is not necessary. " Check out: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools https://www.phillyfreeschool.org/why-it-works https://www.phillyfreeschool.org/why-it-works The problem is we are stuck with our current model - even when alternatives have better outcomes, parents just say "well my kid would not do well with that, they are too lazy to even do what we ask." They do not realize that our current model is so broken that disinterest in a student is a perfectly rational response. For example, I think video game addiction is a natural response to being forced to do something you hate 8-12 hours a day. The fact that the Philly Free School has very few students ever even playing video games at all (but they are allowed to all day if they want) paints a very clear picture that video games are a symptom not a cause. And finally, a damning indictment of our current model; https://cantrip.org/gatto.html https://cantrip.org/gatto.html

patrickwalton 2y ago

I had this in the U.S. and it was one of the best things that ever happened to me. My parents signed me up for homeschool every year, but I still did public school. As a result, I just did whatever classes I wanted. Junior year, I realized that I'd have to drop all my fun classes and just do core for the last year and a half to graduate. Decided instead to not graduate and just find books on different topics from the library. Ended up with: - Huckleberry Finn - a deep History book on Roman Britain - a nonfiction coffee table book on space - an intro to physics workbook - a Spanish book - a book on governments around the world As it happened, I worked through 4 big space books and realized that I was really passionate about space. When I started college it was easy to plan my direction and be motivated because I knew the area I wanted to work in.

koko489 2y ago

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