7 ms·

It's complex because french is full of exceptions the classical way to pluralize "–al" words: un animal → des animaux [en: animal(s)] un journal → des jou

by BafS 2y ago

It's complex because french is full of exceptions the classical way to pluralize "–al" words: un animal → des animaux [en: animal(s)] un journal → des journaux [en: journal(s)] with some exceptions: un carnaval → des carnavals [en: carnival(s)] un festival → des festivals [en: festival(s)] un idéal → des idéals (OR des idéaux) [en: ideal(s)] un val → des vals (OR des vaux) [en: valley(s)] There is no logic there (as many things in french), it's up to Mistral to choose how the plural can be EDIT: Format + better examples

rich_sasha 2y ago
That's news to me that French for "valley" is masculine and "val" - isn't it feminine "vallée"? Like, say "Vallée Blanche" near Chamonix? And I suppose the English ripoff, "valley" sounds more like "vallée" than "val" (backwards argument, I know).
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Yes, la vallée (feminine) and le val (masculine). Valley is usually la vallée. Val is mostly only used in the names of places. Apparently val gave vale in English.
  - makapuf 2y ago
    Genders in French words is a fine example of a cryptography-grade random generator.
    - Muromec 2y ago
      It's a keyed generator, they just lost that small bag that seeded it
    - GuB-42 2y ago
      It can funny sometimes. A breast (un sein) and a vagina (un vagin) are both masculine, while a beard (une barbe) is feminine. For the slang terms, a ball (une couille) and a dick (une bite) are also feminine. Of course, it is not always the opposite, otherwise it wouldn't be random. A penis (un penis) is masculine for instance.
- idoubtit 2y ago
  The "Vallée blanche" you mentioned is not very far from "Val d'Arly" or "Val Thorens" in the Alps. Both words "val" and "vallée", and also "vallon", come from the Latin "vallis". See the Littré dictionary https://www.littre.org/definition/val https://www.littre.org/definition/val for examples over the last millennium. By the way "Le dormeur du val" (The sleeper of the small valley) is one of Rimbaud's most famous poems, often learned at school.
- bambax 2y ago
  Un val is a small vallée. Une vallée is typically several kilometers wide; un val is a couple of hundred meters wide, tops. The "Trésor de la langue française informatisé" (which hasn't been updated since 1994) says val is deprecated, but it's common in classic literary novels, together with un vallon, a near synonym.
- dustypotato 2y ago
  Le terme vallée, utilisé comme toponyme, doit être distingué du terme val qui est souvent employé pour désigner et nommer une région limitée dans divers pays d'Europe et dans leurs langues. -- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e I agree. it's weird. I'm sure there are other similar examples
maw 2y ago
But are these truly exceptions? Or are they the result of subtler rules French learners are rarely taught explicitly? I don't know what the precise rules or patterns actually might be. But one fact that jumped out at me is that -mal and -nal start with nasal consonants and three of the "exceptions" end in -val.
- epolanski 2y ago
  If it is like Italian, my native language, it's just exceptions you learn by usage.
- makapuf 2y ago
  I've never heard of such a rule (am native), and your reasoning is fine but there are many common examples : cheval (horse), rival, estival (adjective, "in the summer "), travail (work, same rules for -ail words)...
- cwizou 2y ago
  No, like parent says, with many things in French, grammar and what we call "orthographe" is based on usage. And what's accepted tends to change over time. What's taught in school varies over the years too, with a large tendency to move to simplification. A good example is the french word for "key" which used to be written "clef" but over time moved to "clé" (closer to how it sounds phonetically). About every 20/30 years, we get some "réformes" on the topic, which are more or less followed, there's some good information here (the 1990 one is interesting on its own) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_French_orthography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_French_orthography Back to this precise one, there's no precise rule or pattern underneath, no rhyme or reason, it's just exceptions based on usage and even those can have their own exceptions. Like "idéals/idéaux", I (french) personally never even heard that "idéals" was a thing. Yet it is, somehow : https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/idéal/41391 https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/idéal/41391
  - speed_spread 2y ago
    Errr. French is _not_ based on usage but has an official rulebook that is maintained by L'académie de la langue française. Obviously nobody is coming after you if you don't respect the rules but there absolutely is a defined standard. This makes French useful for international standards and treaties because the wording can be very precise and leave much less to interpretation. To my knowledge there aren't that many languages that are managed as officially as French is.
realo 2y ago
Indeed not always rational... cuissots de veau cuisseaux de chevreuil
- kergonath 2y ago
  I think you got it backwards ;) In any case, this is (officially) obsolete now. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisseau https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisseau
clauderoux 2y ago
The exceptions are usually due to words that were borrowed from other languages and hence do not follow French rules. Many of the words that were mentioned here are borrowed from the Occitan language.

by BafS 2y ago

rich_sasha 2y ago

That's news to me that French for "valley" is masculine and "val" - isn't it feminine "vallée"? Like, say "Vallée Blanche" near Chamonix? And I suppose the English ripoff, "valley" sounds more like "vallée" than "val" (backwards argument, I know).

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Yes, la vallée (feminine) and le val (masculine). Valley is usually la vallée. Val is mostly only used in the names of places. Apparently val gave vale in English.
- makapuf 2y ago
  Genders in French words is a fine example of a cryptography-grade random generator.
  - Muromec 2y ago
    It's a keyed generator, they just lost that small bag that seeded it
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    It can funny sometimes. A breast (un sein) and a vagina (un vagin) are both masculine, while a beard (une barbe) is feminine. For the slang terms, a ball (une couille) and a dick (une bite) are also feminine. Of course, it is not always the opposite, otherwise it wouldn't be random. A penis (un penis) is masculine for instance.
idoubtit 2y ago
The "Vallée blanche" you mentioned is not very far from "Val d'Arly" or "Val Thorens" in the Alps. Both words "val" and "vallée", and also "vallon", come from the Latin "vallis". See the Littré dictionary https://www.littre.org/definition/val https://www.littre.org/definition/val for examples over the last millennium. By the way "Le dormeur du val" (The sleeper of the small valley) is one of Rimbaud's most famous poems, often learned at school.
bambax 2y ago
Un val is a small vallée. Une vallée is typically several kilometers wide; un val is a couple of hundred meters wide, tops. The "Trésor de la langue française informatisé" (which hasn't been updated since 1994) says val is deprecated, but it's common in classic literary novels, together with un vallon, a near synonym.
dustypotato 2y ago
Le terme vallée, utilisé comme toponyme, doit être distingué du terme val qui est souvent employé pour désigner et nommer une région limitée dans divers pays d'Europe et dans leurs langues. -- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e I agree. it's weird. I'm sure there are other similar examples

maw 2y ago

But are these truly exceptions? Or are they the result of subtler rules French learners are rarely taught explicitly? I don't know what the precise rules or patterns actually might be. But one fact that jumped out at me is that -mal and -nal start with nasal consonants and three of the "exceptions" end in -val.

epolanski 2y ago
If it is like Italian, my native language, it's just exceptions you learn by usage.
makapuf 2y ago
I've never heard of such a rule (am native), and your reasoning is fine but there are many common examples : cheval (horse), rival, estival (adjective, "in the summer "), travail (work, same rules for -ail words)...
cwizou 2y ago
No, like parent says, with many things in French, grammar and what we call "orthographe" is based on usage. And what's accepted tends to change over time. What's taught in school varies over the years too, with a large tendency to move to simplification. A good example is the french word for "key" which used to be written "clef" but over time moved to "clé" (closer to how it sounds phonetically). About every 20/30 years, we get some "réformes" on the topic, which are more or less followed, there's some good information here (the 1990 one is interesting on its own) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_French_orthography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_French_orthography Back to this precise one, there's no precise rule or pattern underneath, no rhyme or reason, it's just exceptions based on usage and even those can have their own exceptions. Like "idéals/idéaux", I (french) personally never even heard that "idéals" was a thing. Yet it is, somehow : https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/idéal/41391 https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/idéal/41391
- speed_spread 2y ago
  Errr. French is _not_ based on usage but has an official rulebook that is maintained by L'académie de la langue française. Obviously nobody is coming after you if you don't respect the rules but there absolutely is a defined standard. This makes French useful for international standards and treaties because the wording can be very precise and leave much less to interpretation. To my knowledge there aren't that many languages that are managed as officially as French is.

realo 2y ago

Indeed not always rational... cuissots de veau cuisseaux de chevreuil

kergonath 2y ago
I think you got it backwards ;) In any case, this is (officially) obsolete now. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisseau https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisseau

clauderoux 2y ago

The exceptions are usually due to words that were borrowed from other languages and hence do not follow French rules. Many of the words that were mentioned here are borrowed from the Occitan language.