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Baseload is a a requirement of real electricity demand, it tends to be about 50-60% of total demand. Since intermittent renewables cannot do baseload, and get

Baseload is a a requirement of real electricity demand, it tends to be about 50-60% of total demand. Since intermittent renewables cannot do baseload, and get asymptotically more expensive trying, fans of intermittent renewables are trying to paint baseload as an obsolete concept by making intermittency primary. That is silly. Baseload is real and a major component of demand. Intermittent renewables can be a good addition, as their supply curves can actually match the variable part of the demand fairly closely (thought obviously not perfectly). It is not true that Hydro can be ramped arbitrarily. For example, just last year Finland had a huge problem with their plentiful hydro plants overloading the grid. Fortunately they also have significant nuclear that they were able to ramp down to compensate. With ~60% baseload, there is no need to ramp nuclear plants down to 0 rapidly. That's only necessary if you screw up your grid by having too much intermittent renewables and giving them priority. Don't do that. Alas, overloading their grid with renewables is exactly what some countries are doing, Germany for example. This is a really bad idea for a number of reasons. One is that due to even the average capacity factors being so low, you have to dramatically over provision in order to even achieve fully supply on average. However, that massive overprovisioning means that when weather is favorable, those massively over provisioned massively cannibalize each other (and other producers, if those still exist). The more you overprovision, the worse this gets. Reasonably ramping nuclear up or down is no problem. France for example has been using nuclear reactors almost exclusively for some time. Lower capacity factors for the nuclear plants than you'd really want, but otherwise not a problem. Their investment in renewables (aim seems to be around 30-40%) will likely increase the capacity factors of their nuclear plants. Good for them!

Retric 2y ago
It’s not the renewable cloud trying to redefine a term go back to 2005 on Wikipedia and you’ll see: “A base load power plant is one that provides a steady flow of power reguardless of total power demand by the grid. Typically, nuclear power plants and most coal fired power plants are considered base load because it is more efficient or safer to run at a set output instead of trying to precisely match power consumption demands.” https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=13520018 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=1... You can find that definition used regularly in older books dating well before renewables where a thing. 01 April 1967: “This paper states some of the basic principles concerning daily and annual load factor on power systems, and the use of load duration curves in coordinating the type and operating pattern of generating plant. Operating procedure is explained, and the types of plant in use or under construction in New Zealand are described. Overseas plant is divided into the categories of base load, medium load factor, and peaking, with an outline of the desirable characteristics in each case.” Also, time of day pricing shifts users to periods of low demand so it doesn’t represent the minimum need, just the observed demand under specific pricing schemes. If daytime rates fall well below nighttime rates continually the actual usage at 3AM would fall dramatically.
- mpweiher 2y ago
  > Baseload is a term used ... 'nuff said.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 2y ago
    The space isn’t relevant as per current Wikipedia “The base load[2] (also baseload)” There’s an even older saying: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and prove it.” The article even goes on to use both, while making clear which definition the author is trying to promote: “Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as some large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants.[3][5][6]” In the wider context grid operators don’t actually care about the specific absolute lowest demand number. They need to operate 24/7 for years so whatever the minimum number happens to be for a single second just doesn’t matter much compared to blackouts and other extreme situations. Bottom 5th percentile matters from an economic standpoint, but very temporary extremes only matter in terms of resiliency.
    - mpweiher 2y ago
      It's not the space. You've consistently mixed up "baseload" and "baseload generation" (not usually called that), irrespective of spaces. There is baseload. That's demand. "The base load[2] (also baseload) is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load There is generation capacity that caters to that demand, for example "baseload generation" or better dispatchable generation. That is supply. > There’s an even older saying: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and prove it.” True, true... You understand the difference between supply and demand? "This demand can be met by unvarying power plants[3] or dispatchable generation,[4]" Dispatchable generation can also service variable demand, but it is difficult to impossible for non-dispatchable generation to service baseload.

Retric 2y ago

It’s not the renewable cloud trying to redefine a term go back to 2005 on Wikipedia and you’ll see: “A base load power plant is one that provides a steady flow of power reguardless of total power demand by the grid. Typically, nuclear power plants and most coal fired power plants are considered base load because it is more efficient or safer to run at a set output instead of trying to precisely match power consumption demands.” https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=13520018 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=1... You can find that definition used regularly in older books dating well before renewables where a thing. 01 April 1967: “This paper states some of the basic principles concerning daily and annual load factor on power systems, and the use of load duration curves in coordinating the type and operating pattern of generating plant. Operating procedure is explained, and the types of plant in use or under construction in New Zealand are described. Overseas plant is divided into the categories of base load, medium load factor, and peaking, with an outline of the desirable characteristics in each case.” Also, time of day pricing shifts users to periods of low demand so it doesn’t represent the minimum need, just the observed demand under specific pricing schemes. If daytime rates fall well below nighttime rates continually the actual usage at 3AM would fall dramatically.

mpweiher 2y ago
> Baseload is a term used ... 'nuff said.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 2y ago
  The space isn’t relevant as per current Wikipedia “The base load[2] (also baseload)” There’s an even older saying: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and prove it.” The article even goes on to use both, while making clear which definition the author is trying to promote: “Power plants that do not change their power output quickly, such as some large coal or nuclear plants, are generally called baseload power plants.[3][5][6]” In the wider context grid operators don’t actually care about the specific absolute lowest demand number. They need to operate 24/7 for years so whatever the minimum number happens to be for a single second just doesn’t matter much compared to blackouts and other extreme situations. Bottom 5th percentile matters from an economic standpoint, but very temporary extremes only matter in terms of resiliency.
  - mpweiher 2y ago
    It's not the space. You've consistently mixed up "baseload" and "baseload generation" (not usually called that), irrespective of spaces. There is baseload. That's demand. "The base load[2] (also baseload) is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, for example, one week." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load There is generation capacity that caters to that demand, for example "baseload generation" or better dispatchable generation. That is supply. > There’s an even older saying: “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and prove it.” True, true... You understand the difference between supply and demand? "This demand can be met by unvarying power plants[3] or dispatchable generation,[4]" Dispatchable generation can also service variable demand, but it is difficult to impossible for non-dispatchable generation to service baseload.