12 ms·

That's the entire point of EU directives: The differences should be so small that it will not matter to anybody.

by phkamp 2y ago

mrtksn 2y ago
Exactly. That's why the red tape and paperwork increased in UK once they left the EU. The gist is, there are about ~30 countries that have their own laws and regulations(the exact number differs because it's not just the EU-only thing) and EU swoops in, makes up a regulation and tells all the members states and associated countries to align their laws and regulations with the EU stuff and you end up with 30 or so countries that have about the same laws and regulations instead of 30 very different laws and regulations. As a result, you don't have to deal with the laws of 30 countries - at least that's the idea but AFAIK EU is not unified enough to make this as smooth as desired - yet.
- rob_c 2y ago
  The only problem is where should this end? I'm all for improving trade, improving general cooperation, recycling rules/laws. The EU here did get a little too big with the curvature of a banana being mentioned. However, I think a _LOT_ of people start to take issue when you say, "OK we're standardizing the way you vote now", "We're standardizing the way rights are structured in your country", "We now place the EU as a supreme directive with a foreign court on certain issues". I can see the appeal, but this has a concerning dark side when it's brought in not through voting, but through treaty and trade in the real-world. Notice how I'm avoiding saying crony-capitalizm or a alike. I wish the EC was more successful in lasting by itself or the EU more flexible and less like a bag of hammers on certain issues which required a soft-touch. I'm not a fan of red tape, but less of a fan of 'Brussels' (I'm not being lyteral) dictating law over a multi-layered legal system with various existing rights and paths to appeal. Hence why I personally voted for Brexit. Yes I'm now working with those new laws and red-tape day to day (boy you think industy had it bad look into academia at times), but most of the issues I see come from foreign entities being in denial of Brexit happening and now drafting in draconian laws that look like they're punishing britain, even if it's just a case of the EU never thought to harmonize EU<->UK relations into 1 concrete set of agreements after the fact. (Yes, Boris and alike did NOT help by sitting across the table acting like spolit childrean at a birthday party. No to mention the whole NI thing dominating discussions because the US has some dealings here historically (I'm being polite!) and for some reason dragged them in whenever there was a 'threat to the peace accords'...) In summary, I like the idea, I just wish people didn't power-grab under the guise of standardization. (Huh, isn't that Intel with USB3, x86, ... or Apple with lightning, wifi, ...)
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Brussels doesn't dictate any laws, member countries send elected and appointed people to Brussels then those people come together and agree on what to do and how to do it together and publish the directives like this one. Countries like UK don't have a say on it anymore because they left the organization. EU doesn't impose any red tape over UK, it's just that if a British company wants to trade with EU needs to prove that they are doing it in accordance with the trade agreements with EU and that their products meet the EU standards. For example, the UK companies will need to prove that the product that they sell in EU is mainly made in UK and not just an import from China(EU doesn't want UK to be hub for circumvention of trade deal, if China wants to sell stuff to EU they should do it with EU-China trade deals), then they will need to prove that their products meets the EU standards(EU doesn't want to import products that don't EU standards. Since UK is no longer a member, they can produce products that don't meet the EU standards and as a result UK companies need to prove that they meet EU standards). That's why there's so much red tape and paperwork, this is to allow UK not to produce their stuff in accordance with the EU regulations and sign their own trade deal. For example, UK is now free to import chlorinated chicken from the USA and lead-paint from China if that's what they want or in less cynical words, UK is free to trade with the rest of the world in their own terms. That was one of the core promises of Brexit anyway and it was delivered. Ps: banana curvature thing is a Euromyth[0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      > banana curvature thing is a Euromyth EU Regulation 2257/94 governed the curvature of bananas. It was later replaced with EU Regulation 1333/2011 which is specifically a regulation on bananas and lays down specific requirements for bananas, in particular on their colour, firmness, ripeness, curvature of the fingers, bruising, moistness, smell and many other factors. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32011R1333 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        That's false, it didn't govern curved bananas. At one point they considered creating a classification for bananas, not banning curved/straight bananas. It's in the document that you linked. Even if that was the case, it would have ment that the UK demanded that. EU is not a Belgian institution, only the building is there and the people in that Building that make those EU laws and regulations are from France, Denmark, Spain and previously UK. You can confirm that by checking old photos and spot Nigel Farage. Anyway, food in UK is horrendous and maybe UK should just go with the flow and do whatever continentals say about food :) Continentals can learn other stuff from the British of course. Like tap water being provided for free at every restaurant.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Can you evidence your claim about red tape increasing in the UK? Because there's some strong data points suggesting that this isn't the case. One is that Nick Clegg - former UK deputy prime minister, arch-Remainer and now VP of Global Affairs at Meta - was recently spotted on X saying this: "We’re expanding Meta AI to more countries, including Brazil and the UK. Unfortunately, we still can't roll it out in the EU because of the regulatory uncertainty we face there." [1] So the UK is able to trade with US firms in this case whereas the EU can't, due to EU created red tape, and this is according to a man who wrote a book called "How to stop Brexit". Another data point is that the amount of trade with the EU wasn't hurt by leaving. Although there was a transient drop in goods exports it recovered within months, and trade in services (where the UK is strongest) didn't change at all. In fact the UK now exports significantly more services to the EU than it did before Brexit, with imports being roughly the same. The EU as a share of UK exports has barely changed, going from 43.1% in 2019 to 42.6% in 2022, which is consistent with the slow long term decline visible for many years pre-Brexit due to the rise of Asia. [2] So whether you go by specific cases like Meta AI or overall import/export aggregation, the UK doesn't seem to be suffering from being outside the EU and is arguably benefiting, assuming you care about access to US AI services (which quite a lot of us do!). [1] https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668 https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668 [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7851/CBP-7851.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Sure, here's the list of the things you have to do to trade with EU that you previously didn't had to: https://www.gov.uk/eori https://www.gov.uk/eori https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration Commercial Invoice: A detailed invoice for each transaction is needed for customs clearance, containing information like the value of goods, description, and terms of sale. Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped, quantities, weights, and packaging information. It's used by customs to verify contents. Commodity Codes (HS Codes): Classify the goods you are trading. These codes determine the duties and VAT that may apply. Certificates of Origin:If your goods are eligible for preferential treatment (e.g., lower tariffs), you might need proof of origin to claim this benefit under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA). VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting. Proof of Transport:ocuments such as bills of lading or airway bills to demonstrate that goods have left the UK or entered the EU. Product-Specific Documentation: ome goods (e.g., food, chemicals, or electronics) may require additional certifications, safety data sheets, or compliance with product standards (e.g., CE or UKCA marking). Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs. Here is some reporting on the impact of the businesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y I'm sure Brexit even created jobs(for bureaucracy) to sustain previous levels of trade. I guess there's no evidence that increased bureaucracy is bad for business and the stats suggests that UK is doing great according to the government and some business with interest of processing EU users data not being able to do the things that Samsung is doing is a proof of reduction of bureaucracy. No?

That's the entire point of EU directives: The differences should be so small that it will not matter to anybody.

by phkamp 2y ago

That's the entire point of EU directives: The differences should be so small that it will not matter to anybody.

Exactly. That's why the red tape and paperwork increased in UK once they left the EU. The gist is, there are about ~30 countries that have their own laws and regulations(the exact number differs because it's not just the EU-only thing) and EU swoops in, makes up a regulation and tells all the members states and associated countries to align their laws and regulations with the EU stuff and you end up with 30 or so countries that have about the same laws and regulations instead of 30 very different laws and regulations. As a result, you don't have to deal with the laws of 30 countries - at least that's the idea but AFAIK EU is not unified enough to make this as smooth as desired - yet.

rob_c 2y ago
The only problem is where should this end? I'm all for improving trade, improving general cooperation, recycling rules/laws. The EU here did get a little too big with the curvature of a banana being mentioned. However, I think a _LOT_ of people start to take issue when you say, "OK we're standardizing the way you vote now", "We're standardizing the way rights are structured in your country", "We now place the EU as a supreme directive with a foreign court on certain issues". I can see the appeal, but this has a concerning dark side when it's brought in not through voting, but through treaty and trade in the real-world. Notice how I'm avoiding saying crony-capitalizm or a alike. I wish the EC was more successful in lasting by itself or the EU more flexible and less like a bag of hammers on certain issues which required a soft-touch. I'm not a fan of red tape, but less of a fan of 'Brussels' (I'm not being lyteral) dictating law over a multi-layered legal system with various existing rights and paths to appeal. Hence why I personally voted for Brexit. Yes I'm now working with those new laws and red-tape day to day (boy you think industy had it bad look into academia at times), but most of the issues I see come from foreign entities being in denial of Brexit happening and now drafting in draconian laws that look like they're punishing britain, even if it's just a case of the EU never thought to harmonize EU<->UK relations into 1 concrete set of agreements after the fact. (Yes, Boris and alike did NOT help by sitting across the table acting like spolit childrean at a birthday party. No to mention the whole NI thing dominating discussions because the US has some dealings here historically (I'm being polite!) and for some reason dragged them in whenever there was a 'threat to the peace accords'...) In summary, I like the idea, I just wish people didn't power-grab under the guise of standardization. (Huh, isn't that Intel with USB3, x86, ... or Apple with lightning, wifi, ...)
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Brussels doesn't dictate any laws, member countries send elected and appointed people to Brussels then those people come together and agree on what to do and how to do it together and publish the directives like this one. Countries like UK don't have a say on it anymore because they left the organization. EU doesn't impose any red tape over UK, it's just that if a British company wants to trade with EU needs to prove that they are doing it in accordance with the trade agreements with EU and that their products meet the EU standards. For example, the UK companies will need to prove that the product that they sell in EU is mainly made in UK and not just an import from China(EU doesn't want UK to be hub for circumvention of trade deal, if China wants to sell stuff to EU they should do it with EU-China trade deals), then they will need to prove that their products meets the EU standards(EU doesn't want to import products that don't EU standards. Since UK is no longer a member, they can produce products that don't meet the EU standards and as a result UK companies need to prove that they meet EU standards). That's why there's so much red tape and paperwork, this is to allow UK not to produce their stuff in accordance with the EU regulations and sign their own trade deal. For example, UK is now free to import chlorinated chicken from the USA and lead-paint from China if that's what they want or in less cynical words, UK is free to trade with the rest of the world in their own terms. That was one of the core promises of Brexit anyway and it was delivered. Ps: banana curvature thing is a Euromyth[0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    > banana curvature thing is a Euromyth EU Regulation 2257/94 governed the curvature of bananas. It was later replaced with EU Regulation 1333/2011 which is specifically a regulation on bananas and lays down specific requirements for bananas, in particular on their colour, firmness, ripeness, curvature of the fingers, bruising, moistness, smell and many other factors. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32011R1333 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      That's false, it didn't govern curved bananas. At one point they considered creating a classification for bananas, not banning curved/straight bananas. It's in the document that you linked. Even if that was the case, it would have ment that the UK demanded that. EU is not a Belgian institution, only the building is there and the people in that Building that make those EU laws and regulations are from France, Denmark, Spain and previously UK. You can confirm that by checking old photos and spot Nigel Farage. Anyway, food in UK is horrendous and maybe UK should just go with the flow and do whatever continentals say about food :) Continentals can learn other stuff from the British of course. Like tap water being provided for free at every restaurant.
mike_hearn 2y ago
Can you evidence your claim about red tape increasing in the UK? Because there's some strong data points suggesting that this isn't the case. One is that Nick Clegg - former UK deputy prime minister, arch-Remainer and now VP of Global Affairs at Meta - was recently spotted on X saying this: "We’re expanding Meta AI to more countries, including Brazil and the UK. Unfortunately, we still can't roll it out in the EU because of the regulatory uncertainty we face there." [1] So the UK is able to trade with US firms in this case whereas the EU can't, due to EU created red tape, and this is according to a man who wrote a book called "How to stop Brexit". Another data point is that the amount of trade with the EU wasn't hurt by leaving. Although there was a transient drop in goods exports it recovered within months, and trade in services (where the UK is strongest) didn't change at all. In fact the UK now exports significantly more services to the EU than it did before Brexit, with imports being roughly the same. The EU as a share of UK exports has barely changed, going from 43.1% in 2019 to 42.6% in 2022, which is consistent with the slow long term decline visible for many years pre-Brexit due to the rise of Asia. [2] So whether you go by specific cases like Meta AI or overall import/export aggregation, the UK doesn't seem to be suffering from being outside the EU and is arguably benefiting, assuming you care about access to US AI services (which quite a lot of us do!). [1] https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668 https://x.com/nickclegg/status/1844415308812939668 [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7851/CBP-7851.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Sure, here's the list of the things you have to do to trade with EU that you previously didn't had to: https://www.gov.uk/eori https://www.gov.uk/eori https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration https://www.gov.uk/check-customs-declaration Commercial Invoice: A detailed invoice for each transaction is needed for customs clearance, containing information like the value of goods, description, and terms of sale. Packing List: Provides details of the goods being shipped, quantities, weights, and packaging information. It's used by customs to verify contents. Commodity Codes (HS Codes): Classify the goods you are trading. These codes determine the duties and VAT that may apply. Certificates of Origin:If your goods are eligible for preferential treatment (e.g., lower tariffs), you might need proof of origin to claim this benefit under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA). VAT and Duties: If you're selling to EU consumers, you may need to register for VAT in the EU or use the One-Stop Shop (OSS) scheme for simplified reporting. Proof of Transport:ocuments such as bills of lading or airway bills to demonstrate that goods have left the UK or entered the EU. Product-Specific Documentation: ome goods (e.g., food, chemicals, or electronics) may require additional certifications, safety data sheets, or compliance with product standards (e.g., CE or UKCA marking). Trade Agreement Compliance: Ensure that your business complies with the terms set out in the UK-EU Trade and Cooperation Agreement, especially regarding rules of origin and applicable tariffs. Here is some reporting on the impact of the businesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-7rDYo3FR4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2lWmgEK1Y I'm sure Brexit even created jobs(for bureaucracy) to sustain previous levels of trade. I guess there's no evidence that increased bureaucracy is bad for business and the stats suggests that UK is doing great according to the government and some business with interest of processing EU users data not being able to do the things that Samsung is doing is a proof of reduction of bureaucracy. No?